A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

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robertk
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by robertk »

The commentary to the Netti pakarana has a section on the 38 vancakkha dhammas- the cheating dhammas.
For example on of them is related to renunciation: one moves to a secluded place, gives up meeting with people and feels this is because they are developing renunciation. It is just as likely to be done out of subtle aversion to the problems that come with society. On the othe rhand one stays in society and feels that one is doing this through equanimity or metta- but doesn't see the attachment to sensuality that is really motivating the behavior..

And practically every real right action in the spiritual realm has its not always obvious cheating counterpart (vangakkha). If there is no genuine awareness one might be 'cheated ' by these fakes for a lifetime.
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Ben
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by Ben »

robertk wrote:The commentary to the Netti pakarana has a section on the 38 vancakkha dhammas- the cheating dhammas.
For example on of them is related to renunciation: one moves to a secluded place, gives up meeting with people and feels this is because they are developing renunciation. It is just as likely to be done out of subtle aversion to the problems that come with society. On the othe rhand one stays in society and feels that one is doing this through equanimity or metta- but doesn't see the attachment to sensuality that is really motivating the behavior..

And practically every real right action in the spiritual realm has its not always obvious cheating counterpart (vangakkha). If there is no genuine awareness one might be 'cheated ' by these fakes for a lifetime.
Hi Robert,

How does one become aware and counter these vangakkha dhammas if they are so subtle as to be easily mistaken for kusala dhammas?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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peteG
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by peteG »

I came across the great blog called 'Musings of an Aspie' and a post 'What is a Neurotypical?' http://musingsofanaspie.com/?s=neurotypical . I particularly liked this part about 'small talk' -
"Perhaps the most obvious giveaway is an NT’s tendency to make “small talk” or to want to “chat” with you. While small talk appears to be nonfunctional, for NTs it serves a very specific purpose. It’s a good idea to humor them and participate to whatever degree you can tolerate. If you’re patient with them, many NTs will soon feel comfortable enough to move from small talk to more interesting, in-depth conversations."

Now when I read this, I could particularly relate to this, because, although I enjoy deep meaningful conversation, 'small talk' often leaves me confused and empty.

As for the the title, there is an album by the band the Dictators called "f*** em if they can't take a joke", and I thought of how small talk is a way to humor social interaction in a way I don't completely get, so I turned the phrase around in way only an aspie would get as an inside joke.
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retrofuturist
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
peteG wrote:If you’re patient with them, many NTs will soon feel comfortable enough to move from small talk to more interesting, in-depth conversations."
I believe they call it "building rapport"... I share your bewilderment in why this needs to be an activity separate and distinct from the meaningful in-depth conversations and exchange of information though. Human beings are funny critters.
peteG wrote:As for the the title, there is an album by the band the Dictators called "f*** em if they can't take a joke", and I thought of how small talk is a way to humor social interaction in a way I don't completely get, so I turned the phrase around in way only an aspie would get as an inside joke.
Perhaps, but I think on net value, it probably diminishes the otherwise valuable message you're trying to communicate here...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
pegembara
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by pegembara »

Ben wrote:
robertk wrote:The commentary to the Netti pakarana has a section on the 38 vancakkha dhammas- the cheating dhammas.
For example on of them is related to renunciation: one moves to a secluded place, gives up meeting with people and feels this is because they are developing renunciation. It is just as likely to be done out of subtle aversion to the problems that come with society. On the othe rhand one stays in society and feels that one is doing this through equanimity or metta- but doesn't see the attachment to sensuality that is really motivating the behavior..

And practically every real right action in the spiritual realm has its not always obvious cheating counterpart (vangakkha). If there is no genuine awareness one might be 'cheated ' by these fakes for a lifetime.
Hi Robert,

How does one become aware and counter these vangakkha dhammas if they are so subtle as to be easily mistaken for kusala dhammas?
kind regards,

Ben
By being aware of the subtle pull/desire and push/aversion present ie. vedanaupassana which would appear to be no mean feat.
"There are these three kinds of feeling: a pleasant feeling, a painful feeling, and neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. On the occasion when one feels a pleasant feeling, one does not feel either a painful feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a pleasant feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. One feels only a painful feeling on that occasion. On the occasion when one feels a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, one does not feel either a pleasant feeling or a painful feeling. One feels only a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling on that occasion.

"A pleasant feeling is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing. A neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is also inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen, subject to ending, subject to vanishing, fading, ceasing.

"Seeing this, an instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with pleasant feeling, disenchanted with painful feeling, disenchanted with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. From dispassion, he is released. With release, there is the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns, 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.' A monk whose mind is thus released does not take sides with anyone, does not dispute with anyone. He words things by means of what is said in the world but without grasping at it."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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robertk
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by robertk »

Ben wrote:
robertk wrote:
The commentary to the Netti pakarana has a section on the 38 vancakkha dhammas- the cheating dhammas.
For example on of them is related to renunciation: one moves to a secluded place, gives up meeting with people and feels this is because they are developing renunciation. It is just as likely to be done out of subtle aversion to the problems that come with society. On the othe rhand one stays in society and feels that one is doing this through equanimity or metta- but doesn't see the attachment to sensuality that is really motivating the behavior..

And practically every real right action in the spiritual realm has its not always obvious cheating counterpart (vangakkha). If there is no genuine awareness one might be 'cheated ' by these fakes for a lifetime.

Hi Robert,

How does one become aware and counter these vangakkha dhammas if they are so subtle as to be easily mistaken for kusala dhammas?
kind regards,

Ben
there is a parami called sacca, truthfulness that is woefully underdeveloped in most of us. So we are always quick to cling to anything that looks like progress and exaggerate it in our own mind.
basically , in my opinion , as soon As there is the merest hint or feeling of having Kusala we can be sure that attachment is blossoming and delusion is flowing.
so how to have kusala without clinging? no easy way, other than by really revering the teachings i think so that they become our teacher rather than tricky aspects of lobha which we take for insight.
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Ben
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by Ben »

Thanks Robert!
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Coyote
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by Coyote »

Very interesting post Robert.

If it is very hard to tell whether the motivations for our actions are kusala, then how should we approach actions such as Dana, Sila and similar things? According to the commentary you posted, they may well be associated with akusala mind states in the individual, and yet we still do them to the best of out ability, even though we have not reached the level where they happen according to our nature (stream-entry). Why could the same not be said of renunciation and other right actions? I.e that we do them to the best of out ability, even though "real" wisdom is not there yet.

Thank you for your input
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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robertk
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by robertk »

such an excellent question coyote.
i ask nina and sujin this same question many many times.
In good conventional actions , like say giving something to a monk, they would say there is sure to be at least some citta processes associated with kusala. But still there should be awareness developing or there will be almost instantly attachment after and during("how good it is,and i am") without realizing.
That doesnt mean be paralyzed, feeling that one has to be pure first, and not do any conventional good deeds. But it does mean one should be honest and open to seeing the very subtle lobha that likes to feel like a good person..
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retrofuturist
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

The Buddha doesn't seem as averse to such perceptions as "nina and sujin" are...
Dhp 18 wrote:Here he is happy, hereafter he is happy; one who performs meritorious deeds is happy in both existences. Happily he exclaims: "I have done meritorious deeds." He is happier still when he is reborn in a higher world (suggati).
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by chownah »

peteG,
Seems like some people here are talking about how sometimes someone who finds social interaction boring will stop socializing to avoid the boredom but think that they have renounced socialization....in other words they misunderstand their motives by thinking that it is noble when in fact it is just a way to avoid boredom. Seems to me that you are describing something much more intense. Seems to me you are talking about some sort of running away from socialization to avoid it and these people are not thinking that their actions are noble, they just think that it is a relief and a safer way to be. Am I right about this? Do you see two different attitudes like I have described?...and if so can you add something to show precisely the kinds of attitudes you were talking about in hour blog posting?
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by Coyote »

Thanks Robert. Being honest with yourself is a good policy.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... .html#pali

Retro: The suttas record various motives for exercising generosity. The Anguttara Nikaya (A.iv,236) enumerates the following eight motives:

Asajja danam deti: one gives with annoyance, or as a way of offending the recipient, or with the idea of insulting him.[5]
Bhaya danam deti: fear also can motivate a person to make an offering.
Adasi me ti danam deti: one gives in return for a favor done to oneself in the past.
Dassati me ti danam deti one also may give with the hope of getting a similar favor for oneself in the future.
Sadhu danan ti danam deti: one gives because giving is considered good.
Aham pacami, ime ne pacanti, na arahami pacanto apacantanam adatun ti danam deti: "I cook, they do not cook. It is not proper for me who cooks not to give to those who do not cook." Some give urged by such altruistic motives.
Imam me danam dadato kalyano kittisaddo abbhuggacchati ti danam deti: some give alms to gain a good reputation.
Cittalankara-cittaparikkarattham danam deti: still others give alms to adorn and beautify the mind.

:)
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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peteG
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by peteG »

Here is the latest post to my blog: http://mindfullasd.blogspot.com/2013/06 ... ivion.html It is an example of the intense feelings that may come up when entering into social situations and why I sometimes avoid them.

Pete
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dagon
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by dagon »

Thank you for this thread and its content.

As i move along the path of my development i find that i seek to spend time with Buddhist and do not seek the company of those who are on a different path. i find those on other paths not to be relevant to my life or conducive to my intended development. I do not think of this as avoidance or renunciation - but then honesty with myself may not be my strength. How am i to judge what is the truth and what is illusion?

Metta
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Ben
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Re: A contemporary analysis of the dukkha of avoidance

Post by Ben »

dagon wrote:Thank you for this thread and its content.

As i move along the path of my development i find that i seek to spend time with Buddhist and do not seek the company of those who are on a different path. i find those on other paths not to be relevant to my life or conducive to my intended development. I do not think of this as avoidance or renunciation -
You may find that in time, this will change.
dagon wrote:but then honesty with myself may not be my strength. How am i to judge what is the truth and what is illusion?
This self awareness is excellent. And the answer to your question is that as you continue to investigate reality as it pertains to the psycho-physical matrix, you will become increasingly more penetratingly self-reflexive.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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