the great vegetarian debate

Where members are free to take ideas from the Theravāda Canon out of the Theravāda framework. Here you can question rebirth, kamma (and other contentious issues) as well as examine Theravāda's connection to other paths
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:41 pm

Ron-The-Elder wrote:Sounds good, but what do you do when you live in Alaska during the winter months? How about Tibet? Antarctica?.


Haven't they got Tescos yet? :jumping:
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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cooran
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby cooran » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:55 am

Hello all,

For the first time in years and years, I heard this song:

Cows with Guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5s5qGg01nE

Still brought a smile after all this time. :jumping:

with metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mojo » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:50 am

nekete wrote:Image


I've gone back and forth with vegetarianism since I was 18 or 19 and have been away from the practice for about a year now mostly as an issue of convenience that I rationalized into an issue of health. Anyways, I came across this photo a few days ago which got my gears turning and so I've decided to try treating vegetarianism as an ideal not an identity this go around but vow to not eat meat out of craving anymore.

Buckwheat
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Buckwheat » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:30 am

nekete wrote:Image

I would eat the pig. :twisted: :embarassed: Sorry, but it's true.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Sat Apr 06, 2013 9:13 am

Buckwheat wrote:I would eat the pig. :twisted: :embarassed: Sorry, but it's true.


Me neither. I'd rather have the company. ;)
"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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nekete
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby nekete » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:44 am

Buckwheat wrote:
nekete wrote:Image

I would eat the pig. :twisted: :embarassed: Sorry, but it's true.


What's really true it's that you never will have to choose between die or eat a pig in a desert island. The true is that everyday most of the people choose to buy a killed pig in a supermarket full of non bloody food.

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Aloka » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:56 am

I can't remember if I've posted in this thread before, but I've been a vegetarian since not long after thinking when I was a teenager that I didn't want to eat my friends . (i liked all animals that I saw or had any contact with, still do.)

So no, there's no way I'd eat the pig....or eat pork from a supermarket.

:)

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby mogg » Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:57 am

knitted wrote:I believe it is no longer simply an issue of preventing cruelty to animals. Resources are so scarce that our current habits will destroy us all. I find myself less and less willing to eat anything that we do not grow or cook ourselves, or comes from local ingredients. Mass production = mass extinction.

Frankly I'm not really worried about mass extinction...its a certainty for all life on Earth regardless of what we do. Our concern shouldn't be trying to fix samsara (leave that to the Christians), our goal is to end suffering here and now.
Samsara is broken. It cannot be fixed.

I adhere to the precepts and eat meat occasionally. What goes into my mouth isn't my primary conern.

With metta

corrine
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby corrine » Thu May 09, 2013 5:57 pm

About that whole living in Alaska thing. A dear friend lived in Tok, Alaska for several years. She was vegetarian. She had a large greenhouse thing going and grew all sorts of veggies all year. In addition, and this was back in the sixties when it was more difficult, she ordered large amounts of wheat, grains, dried beans etc. for long term storage. She did okay. She also ordered cartons of books this way as she had no television or electronics as we do now. Today I imagine it would be quite easy. Just get the equipment and move forward.

There is always a way should one wish to avoid harming other living things. Ethical behavior is not always easy but it is usually doable should one wish to make the effort. I think sometimes we just look for excuses to do as we please.

corrine

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Zenainder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Zenainder » Wed May 29, 2013 10:08 pm

Unfortunately in my current conditioned thought I am a savage, although I've become more interested in organic choices, including a reduction of red meats and more fish / chicken. I've considered easing into becoming vegetarian, but I am not there yet. I do often think of the animals that suffered at the stake for my nourishment. Maybe one day? :shrug:

person
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby person » Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:17 pm

Has anyone read this:
http://a-bas-le-ciel.blogspot.com/2012/06/vegetarianism-and-theravada-orthodoxy.html by Eisel Mazard?
If so, what did they think? I found it somewhat unclear, but the author seems very knowledgeable, so I would like to understand what he is saying.

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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mojo » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:32 pm

I'm considering moving from an ovo-lacto vegetarian diet to a vegan one. I'm going to discuss it wit my doctor at my next physical.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:18 pm

Personally, the main benefit of defending vegetarians and vegetarianism on these forums is I've gone from a partial vegetarian, eating only a little chicken, to a full vegetarian, lots of cheese and eggs, though.

I think the message of the buddha is to eat as little meat as you can be comfortable with, some of us have felt certain health benefit to eating meat, some of us are so addicted to meat that we couldn't imagine going without it, but the killing and eating of animals does have a karmic negative, the Buddha taught that, so eat less if you eat a lot, thats a bigger step than me eliminating the little I was eating, All food production involves the killing of some small creatures, but eating farmed animals involves the killing of a lot more small creatures and the actual animal you are eating as well, think of cows and pigs as you would your dog or cat. They didn't ask to be on your plate. and you don't need their distressed hormones running through your body.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Vern Stevens
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Vern Stevens » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:03 pm

I personally enjoy reading the responses in this thread that do not include egotistic judgment of the meat-eater and that focus more on the Dharma. Attempts to employ guilt tactics can be awfully counter-productive. My understanding of Buddhism is that people need our compassion and understanding, not our condescension and derision. This is not to suggest that the animals being consumed do not also need compassion as well, they do. And yes, I do understand this can be an emotionally charged issue for folks on both sides. But these kinds of changes can be very difficult for people to make and sometimes a reduction in meat consumption (versus outright elimination) is the best they can manage. Just because I or you can do something, doesn't mean it is that easy for the next person.

In my case, about a year ago my diet was very meat-centric. I would have meals almost entirely of meat and very little veggies (and the veggies I had were starchy and not the "good" ones). Now I'm down to one side of a chicken breast a day (2 meals with meat, 1 without). Lots of whole food veggies, fruits, nuts, and some beans. I'm not there yet, but for the first time I am considering vegetarian and I can see it as a possibility. Additionally, I've read different opinions that suggest a healthy transition to vegetarianism can take some time for those who are committed to make the change.

Thank you kind forum-dwellers.
“What we think, we become.“ - The Buddha

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:25 pm

Funny you should say that about chicken, I have this kind of belief that if you could eat only one kind of meat, it should be chicken, something about eating the least advanced animal in our food chain, The arguement has one flaw, the number of chickens you would have to eat to be equivalent to the meat of one cow. Still Chicken or fish seems like a good compromise for someone who feels, like I used to, that their good health depends on eating some meat. SInce I've gone full vege my health hasn't improved, in fact I feel a little "deficient" in my diet, but I don't know if its a coincidence, but I have become more spiritual.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Mojo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby Mojo » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:12 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Funny you should say that about chicken, I have this kind of belief that if you could eat only one kind of meat, it should be chicken, something about eating the least advanced animal in our food chain, The arguement has one flaw, the number of chickens you would have to eat to be equivalent to the meat of one cow. Still Chicken or fish seems like a good compromise for someone who feels, like I used to, that their good health depends on eating some meat. SInce I've gone full vege my health hasn't improved, in fact I feel a little "deficient" in my diet, but I don't know if its a coincidence, but I have become more spiritual.


Are you getting enough compete proteins (all the essential amino acids)? What about vitamin B12? Iron?

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:49 am

I've been a vegetarian most of my life, and was raised strict vegetarian, I eat plenty of Dairy, grains, and vegetables, B12 is really only a big problem for vegans, its in dairy, but I do take multivitamins, just to be safe. thanks for your consideration
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Ben
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Vegetarians live longer

Postby Ben » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:50 am

People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found. The study, published in JAMA Internal Medicine in June, followed 70,000 members of the Seventh Day Adventist Church over a six year period.
"Vegetarian diets are associated with lower all-cause mortality and with some reductions in cause-specific mortality," the authors concluded. "Results appeared to be more robust in males. These favorable associations should be considered carefully by those offering dietary guidance."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/diet ... z2XNCu3w80


This is indeed interesting news.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Paul Davy
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Postby Paul Davy » Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:52 am

Greetings,

The Age wrote:
People who follow a vegetarian diet can enjoy an almost 12 per cent lower mortality rate than their meat loving counterparts, a new study has found.

So only 88% of vegetarians die?

:jumping:

Metta,
Retro. :)
“I hope, Anuruddha, that you are all living in concord, with mutual appreciation, without disputing, blending like milk and water, viewing each other with kindly eyes.” (MN 31)

What is the final conviction that comes when radical attention is razor-edge sharp? That the object of the mind is mind-made (manomaya). (Ven. Ñāṇananda)

"If you have always believed that everyone should play by the same rules and be judged by the same standards, that would have gotten you labeled a radical 50 years ago, a liberal 25 years ago and a racist today." (Thomas Sowell)

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manas
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Re: Vegetarians live longer

Postby manas » Thu Jun 27, 2013 1:02 am

Yes, statistically this is true. In particular, I would encourage members to look up the connection between beef consumption, and bowel cancers. Even if one does eat meat, it might be worth considering eliminating red meat from the diet. Those colon bags attached to the body after surgery are not nice...really.

If one still feels compelled to eat red meat, it might help to have, at the same meal, a large (fibre-rich) serving of veggies and salad, to help push it through the colon, so I've heard. We don't want it putrefying in the bowels. But I would still recommend eliminating it entirely.

metta
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