How do you contemplate anicca?

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
pegembara
Posts: 3454
Joined: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:39 am

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by pegembara »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Lyndon,
lyndon taylor wrote:How does impermanence deal with things that last a long, long time, like a mountain that may sit relatively unchanged for tens of thousands of years as opposed to a piece of fruit which may start rotting in a few days, or a Buddha statue thats 1000 years old, vs a body that can barely last 100 years and is continually aging?? Or is the Buddha stating that every thing we see is impermanent because we can't take any of it with us when we die?
The Buddha says, "sabbe sankhara anicca"... all formations/fabrications/constructions are impermanent.

In the context of his teaching, sankharas apply to formations/fabrications/constructions created by the individual.

The Dhamma is about lived experience and liberation - not about geology, physics and other such sciences.

Such contemplations pertaining to fruit and mountains may provide some sense of the transient nature of all things, but it's live experience which the Buddha is addressing with his teachings and it's there within lived experience where insight can be liberating.

So it's not impermanence in and of itself that's the issue, but the impermanence of all sankhata-dhammas. (i.e. of all fabricated experience).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Yes, the focus with Theravada vipassana is on experience, but that experience doesn't occur in a vacuum.
It occurs here...
SN 35.23 wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
"As you say, lord," the monks responded.
The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."
But forms, aromas etc are external. And see for example SN35.4, the section headed "The external as impermanent", where is says: "Forms..sounds..odours...tastes..tactile objects..are impermanent".
And a distinction is made in the suttas between the internal and the external, for example repeatedly in the Satipatthana Sutta and in suttas decribing the elements.

But I do agree with the general observation that the Theravada approach to insight is internally focussed rather than externally focussed.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote:But forms ... are external.
Are they? In the case of a tree 10 metres away, I don't understand how the "form" could be relating to anything other than "sight of tree"... it's certainly not a case of "contact" between the eye and the "tree (itself)" that occurs.

In another discussion recently we reached as far as we could go, due to matters of definition... and I think we're about to do the same again here.

Anyway, I hope I've answered the topic question of how I contemplate anicca, whether you found the answer useful or agreeable (or not).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote:Anyway, I hope I've answered the topic question of how I contemplate anicca, whether you found the answer useful or agreeable (or not).
Yes, I found your comments interesting and useful, particularly in considering the relationship between bare attention and insight. As with the other thread on contemplating anatta, it seems there are a variety of approaches.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:Armed with this principle, one analyzes ones experience in terms of the arising and ceasing of dukkha, the arising and ceasing of asavas...
So your approach to contemplating anicca is to observe the rise and fall of asavas?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote:... it's certainly not a case of "contact" between the eye and the "tree (itself)" that occurs.
Walk over to the tree and touch it. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by daverupa »

Spiny Norman wrote:
daverupa wrote:Armed with this principle, one analyzes ones experience in terms of the arising and ceasing of dukkha, the arising and ceasing of asavas...
So your approach to contemplating anicca is to observe the rise and fall of asavas?
So, the order is first an intellectual grasp of what it means for something to be impermanent. One example used in the suttas is aging; we know all humans age & can see it occur over time. Then, one looks for that in terms of appropriate attention and satipatthana, which can happen in a number of ways; the last of those is that one.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:So your approach to contemplating anicca is to observe the rise and fall of asavas?
Then, one looks for that in terms of appropriate attention and satipatthana, which can happen in a number of ways; the last of those is that one.
Yes I see, though I'd associate MN9 more with insight into specific conditionality than with insight into anicca - while acknowledging these are closely related.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by daverupa »

Spiny Norman wrote:I'd associate MN9 more with insight into specific conditionality than with insight into anicca - while acknowledging these are closely related.
One will get you the other. I'd like to hear how someone had insight into idapaccayata but not anicca. They seem somewhat inseparable. Here are the aggregates, known to be dicsussed in terms of impermanence, being discussed also in terms of their arising and ceasing.

There is also this juxtaposition of the ideas:
"Owing to the eye and forms arises eye-consciousness. The eye is impermanent, changing, 'becoming-otherwise.' Forms are impermanent, changing, 'becoming-otherwise.' Thus this dyad is fleeting and transient; impermanent, changing and 'becoming-otherwise.' That cause, that condition, that gives rise to eye-consciousness — that also is impermanent, changing, becoming-otherwise.' And how, monks, could eye consciousness, having arisen dependent on an impermanent condition, become permanent?"
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
daverupa wrote:I'd like to hear how someone had insight into idapaccayata but not anicca.
So would I.

Further, I envisage there'll be little insight into idapaccayata if one's focus re: aniccata, is on mountains, fruit and such.

Pali Term: Idappaccayatā
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=6014

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SamKR
Posts: 1037
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 pm

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by SamKR »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
daverupa wrote:I'd like to hear how someone had insight into idapaccayata but not anicca.
So would I.

Further, I envisage there'll be little insight into idapaccayata if one's focus re: aniccata, is on mountains, fruit and such.
+1
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

retrofuturist wrote:Further, I envisage there'll be little insight into idapaccayata if one's focus re: aniccata, is on mountains, fruit and such.
That's already been acknowledged, so I'm not sure why you're labouring the point.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
Spiny Norman
Posts: 10154
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by Spiny Norman »

daverupa wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:I'd associate MN9 more with insight into specific conditionality than with insight into anicca - while acknowledging these are closely related.
One will get you the other.
Sure - I acknowledged they were closely related. It's really all dhamma vicaya, so I think what we're actually discussing are different directions of approach. You could argue that these distinctions are somewhat contrived.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: How do you contemplate anicca?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Spiny,
Spiny Norman wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Further, I envisage there'll be little insight into idapaccayata if one's focus re: aniccata, is on mountains, fruit and such.
That's already been acknowledged, so I'm not sure why you're labouring the point.
No it hadn't. "Idapaccayata" and "[inanimate objects]" had been mentioned separately, but until I did so, they had not been mentioned in connection.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Post Reply