YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared - Dhamma Wheel

AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

Moderator: mikenz66

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:19 am

AN 7.51 PTS: A iv 67
Avyakata Sutta: Undeclared
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


Why does doubt not arise in the mind of a stream-enterer?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, what is the cause, what is the reason, why uncertainty doesn't arise in an instructed disciple of the noble ones over the undeclared issues?"

"Because of the cessation of views, monk, uncertainty doesn't arise in an instructed disciple of the noble ones over the undeclared issues. The view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata exists after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death,' the view-standpoint, 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death': The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern view, doesn't discern the origination of view, doesn't discern the cessation of view, doesn't discern the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view grows. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. But the instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns view, discerns the origination of view, discerns the cessation of view, discerns the path of practice leading to the cessation of view, and so for him that view ceases. He is freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"Thus knowing, thus seeing, the instructed disciple of the noble ones doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death.' Thus knowing, thus seeing, he is thus of a nature not to declare the undeclared issues. Thus knowing, thus seeing, he isn't paralyzed, doesn't quake, doesn't shiver or shake over the undeclared issues.

"'The Tathagata exists after death' — this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That's anguish.[1] 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death': That's anguish. 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death': That's anguish. 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death': That's anguish.[2]

The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern anguish, doesn't discern the origination of anguish, doesn't discern the cessation of anguish, doesn't discern the path of practice leading to the cessation of anguish, and so for him that anguish grows. He is not freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. But the instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns anguish, discerns the origination of anguish, discerns the cessation of anguish, discerns the path of practice leading to the cessation of anguish, and so for him that anguish ceases. He is freed from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, and despairs. He is freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

"Thus knowing, thus seeing, the instructed disciple of the noble ones doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata exists after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't after death,' doesn't declare that 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death.' Thus knowing, thus seeing, he is thus of a nature not to declare the undeclared issues. Thus knowing, thus seeing, he isn't paralyzed, doesn't quake, doesn't shiver or shake over the undeclared issues."

Notes

1. "Anguish" here translates vippatisara, which is usually rendered into English as "remorse" or "regret." Here, however, the feeling of vippatisara relates to concerns about the future, rather than the past, and so neither remorse nor regret are appropriate to the context. The anguish alluded to in this passage is based either on the fear that Awakening would entail an end to existence or on the contrary fear that it wouldn't.

2. In some manuscripts, this paragraph runs as follows: "'The Tathagata exists after death' — this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That's anguish. 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death'... 'The Tathagata both does and doesn't exist after death'... 'The Tathagata neither does nor doesn't exist after death' — this craving-standpoint, this perception-standpoint, this product of conceiving, this product of elaboration, this clinging-standpoint: That's anguish.

See also:
MN 63: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
MN 72: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:47 am


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:38 am


User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:05 pm

Many thanks for this link, Mike. In particular because I know this sutta quite well, but had not seen the significance of the 4NT to that extent - so you have revealed it in a new light!

The Nanamoli/Bodhi translation shgows this 4NT aspect very clearly, but the Thanissaro one does not pick up on it as much. Nor do his (otherwise excellent) notes particularly address it. I think it is something to do with Nanamoli/Bodhi favouring "wholesome" over "skillful", which makes the parallel easier to see.

alan
Posts: 2812
Joined: Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:14 am
Location: Miramar beach, Fl.

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby alan » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:23 pm

It's about appropriate attention, not "lack of views".

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2127
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby Sam Vara » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:09 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:10 am


binocular
Posts: 3391
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby binocular » Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:45 pm


User avatar
seaturtle
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:53 am
Location: Saratoga Springs, NY

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby seaturtle » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:04 pm

I try to approach the suttas from the angle of, how do I apply this to my life. When I first read this post the the connection to right view was clear, but sometimes it feels like changing views is kind of like changing taste preferences. It can't just be done at will.  Going through my collection of suttas I found this: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html, which is very similar to the one posted. The way I read AN 10.93 is that right attention leads to right discernment which allows us to see the truth of Dhukkha, and together these ingredients allow us to develop right view.

Anyway, I like to stick with simple, so what I get from this sutta is that I don't have to cling to my views. Sometimes views about things beyond my experience arise in my mind, and when this happens I can notice, forgive my mind, admit that I don't know, and come back to what the Buddha did teach. I don't need to forcefully get rid of views, I just need to remember what right view means and keep following the right fold path.
To be born human and encounter the great joy
of the good Dharma is a chance rarer than
a turtle thrusting its neck through a yoke
floating freely in the great ocean.

ricebowl
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:26 pm

Re: AN 7.51: Avyakata Sutta — Undeclared

Postby ricebowl » Fri Oct 04, 2013 3:23 pm

What is undeclared in the Avyakata Sutta ain't just a bunch of theories that the world would hope that Shakyamuni Buddha may teach.

What is undeclared is also the name of the monk that asked the Blessed One that very question in the Avyakata Sutta.

The question is very important, yet at that certain juncture, that certain time, with that certain monk, the Blessed One gave such and such a discourse in addressing the need of that certain monk at that time.

To be honest and frank I'm annoyed by Shakyamuni Buddha's response it's like a very important question that received an answer that is comparable to my asking of whether did the chicken come first or the egg come first.

Yet just like the chicken and egg question, I would unfortunately suggest that it is also the same sort of question that ought to remain undeclared.

Even had the Buddha declared the answers in specific fashion, how can the answers be proven, it's still annoying yet leave what is undeclared as undeclared, that's the best way!


Return to “Study Group”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine