MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Manapa,

I was surprised that you did not recognise what I meant when I said mindfulness is non-reactive :) But we can pursue to entirely from an academic perspective if you prefer.
OK I still don't see how you are defining mindfulness as non-reactive
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

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rowyourboat wrote:Why there are four foundations:

§ 44.
It is just as if there were a great pile of dust at a four-way
intersection. If a cart or chariot came from the east, that pile of
dust would be totally leveled. If a cart or chariot came from the
west... from the north... from the south, that pile of dust would be
totally leveled. In the same way, when a monk remains focused on the
body in & of itself, then evil, unskillful qualities are totally
leveled. If he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves, then evil, unskillful qualities are
totally leveled.
— SN 54.10
Yes, and there is just one pile of dust.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

rowyourboat wrote:oh sorry, I was attempting to show how mindfulness, via samadhi, leads to equanimity- hence non-reactive to whatever is thrown at the mindful person. yes, you are correct to say that mindfulness is in itself..just awareness (there is an element of remembering as well).

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where did I say mindfulness is just awareness?
mindfulness is mindfulness it is reactive, the present moment isn't just what we find, it is also the kamma we choose, if we were FSM or some other deity who is far removed from the world we could be aware of what was going on without reacting, but we live in the world and the present moment we experiance we are a part of and the kamma we preform in the moment or to put it another way the choices we make effects the next, even equanimity has this, and feeds back into mindfulness also, it isn't being neutral but a balancing of our mind which is represented in the foundations of mindfulness as setting aside greed and distress in regard to the world.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Sher »

appicchato wrote:Connected in an around about way the essay by Nyanaponika Thera on the four nutriments is an incredible (for me) way of looking at things...especially the 'four frames of reference'...for those unfamiliar with it, check it out...

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
A very interesting article. I noticed it brings up various points that others have mentioned, and yet also brings in some new ideas--such as food devouring us in addition to us devouring it. I haven't finished it all yet, but thanks for posting this link. Sher
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by Sher »

rowyourboat wrote:Hi Sher
Using foulness is part of the satipatthana as well- note the 'five hindrances' include knowing ways of getting rid of them. I think the Buddha would have approved of your seeing mold etc to get rid of the craving as what matters is not the external method you are using but the end result. He has states that whatever gets rid of craving, aversion and delusion, even if it is a method from another religion, is good to practice. RYB-- I have yet to discover what actually rids one of craving, but I have found that a technique such as cognitive behavior therapy can help many people lessen and overcome cravings, but it is work that requires constant vigliance. So, this method may not be able to root out craving all together... :( We cannot leave out the rest of suttas and consider the four foundations in isolation -and this is often a mistake easy to make because of its importance. However as retro a mike mentioned mindfulness alone can be used as well. I do find that sometimes mindfulness can lead to samatha- mere suppression of defilements without any real understanding generated. No generation of an understanding of the drawbacks of phenomena. Especially for the stronger defilements like craving to food and the body- a strong meditation on foulness ('big gun' methods)is very helpful to begin with.For me, it seems very important to have an understanding of the drawbacks and harmfulness of sensual (non-sexual I mean) pleasures. Once it is weakened mindfulness ('scalpel' methods) alone can do the trick of wiping out the more subtle hard to reach remnants of defilements. These big gun methods are often methods of appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) -the thing that the Buddha mentioned as the most useful internal thing in realizing nibbana. When such strong statements are made about it, it should not be neglected- and good to remember in a discussion like this.

One could make an argument for weakening hindrances like craving before (only partially though- setting aside greed and distress etc) or after the satipattana (completely) - as sometimes mentioned in the suttas. Note that craving is part of the mindfulness of the mind, five hindrances sections of this sutta. Hindrances are completely removed at the arahanth level.Right--yes, I remember. It is a part of gradual practice.

mindfulness -because of its non-reactive nature- can slow down defilements- making them sluggish- without feeding them- they pass away quicker. RYB-- so far I have not found this to be true. Because mindfulness is a being aware of what one is feeling and doing in the present moment, I have found that the mindfulness allows me to know and remember what I am doing (instead of doing and feeling without awareness), but this awareness often does not change the behavior or the intention in any way -- the mindfulness is non-reactive. I watch and do not react in any way. Whereas the actual noting -- this is what is harmful from this behavior --as we studied in another sutta a few weeks back-- I find to be more helpful in actually changing or restraining the behavior. And I hear what you are saying about the Big Guns; I just don't how to respond to that at this time.However this is samatha- a method a quietening the mind. When through mindfulness the yogi begins to see drawbacks (anicca, dukkha, anatta, insubstantiality, the deceiving nature) true insight meditation/vipassana begins..literally starts only at that point.Yes, perhaps this is what I am alluding to above. p.s. if you write back I might not respond until Sunday or Mo, because tomorrow I am off to a workshop in Oregon. :) Sher

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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

there is growth and development in the faculty of sati/mindfulness
at an early weak level it is swayed by everything which is going on- one cannot even say that the faculty (indirya) of mindfulness exists here - only the potential of it
at the next level we can be aware of things with out getting caught up in it -some of the time at least- here there is space to look on with wisdom, patience
at even higher levels of it's development it can weaken defilements- I read somewhere that it was equivalent to dropping a drop of water on a hot saucepan at very high levels- maybe it could be said to be one of the 'powers' (bala) here

degrees of development could also be explained in terms of degree of detail detected by sati and/or by duration it can be maintained without dropping it

note that the Buddha calls the four foundations of mindfulness the path to the purification of beings, getting rid of evil states etc so it must be able to do this either via samadhi and/or panna that it generates.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

Hi Jeckhbi
Yes, it is a very big pile of dust! Even the Buddha taught 20 different methods just in the satipatthana - his omniscience could not find method to work them all?! But this only shows the complexity of the mind and the variety of characters.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

what is 'internal' and 'external'

§ 32. Internal & External. There is the case where a monk remains
focused internally on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
As he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself, he
becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear. Rightly
concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to knowledge &
vision externally of the bodies of others.
He remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on feelings
in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and
rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives
rise to knowledge & vision externally of the feelings of others.
He remains focused internally on the mind in & of itself — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. As he remains focused internally on the mind in & of
itself, he becomes rightly concentrated there, and rightly clear.
Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he gives rise to
knowledge & vision externally of the minds of others.
He remains focused internally on mental qualities in & of themselves —
ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with
reference to the world. As he remains focused internally on mental
qualities in & of themselves, he becomes rightly concentrated there,
and rightly clear. Rightly concentrated there and rightly clear, he
gives rise to knowledge & vision externally of the mental qualities
of others.
— DN 18
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

what is further development in satipatthana

§ 29. Analysis. I will teach you the frames of reference, their
development, and the path of practice leading to their development.
Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.
Now, what are the frames of reference? There is the case where a monk
remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of
themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world. These are called the frames of
reference.

And what is the development of the frames of reference? There is the
case where a monk remains focused on the phenomenon of origination
with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing
away with regard to the body, remains focused on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to the body — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to
feelings... with regard to the mind... with regard to mental
qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of passing away with
regard to mental qualities, remains focused on the phenomenon of
origination & passing away with regard to mental qualities — ardent,
alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to
the world. This is called the development of the frames of reference.
And what is the path of practice to the development of the frames of
reference? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve,
right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right
mindfulness, right concentration. This is called the path of practice
to the development of the frames of reference.
— SN § 28.
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

things to do before doing satipatthana

§ 27. Uttiya: It would be good, lord, if the Blessed One would teach
me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the
Blessed One, I might dwell alone, secluded, heedful, ardent, &
resolute.

The Buddha: In that case, Uttiya, you should purify what is most
basic with regard to skillful mental qualities. And what is the basis
of skillful mental qualities? Well-purified virtue & views made
straight
. Then, when your virtue is well-purified and your views made
straight, in dependence on virtue, established in virtue, you should
develop the four frames of reference... Then, when in dependence on
virtue, relying on virtue, you develop the four frames of reference,
you will go beyond the realm of Death.
— SN 47.16
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

reducing the five hindrances (right effort) before satipattana and how it leads to jhana (right concentration)

§ 33. Mindfulness & Concentration. Having abandoned the five
hindrances — imperfections of awareness that weaken discernment — the
monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, &
mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of
themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed &
distress with reference to the world. Just as if an elephant trainer
were to plant a large post in the ground and were to bind a forest
elephant to it by the neck in order to break it of its forest habits,
its forest memories & resolves, its distraction, fatigue, & fever
over leaving the forest, to make it delight in the town and to
inculcate in it habits congenial to human beings; in the same way,
these four frames of reference are bindings for the awareness of the
disiciple of the noble ones, to break him of his household habits,
his household memories & resolves, his distraction, fatigue, & fever
over leaving the household life, for the attainment of the right
method and the realization of Unbinding.

Then the Tathagata trains him further: 'Come, monk, remain focused on
the body in & of itself, but do not think any thoughts connected with
the body. Remain focused on feelings in & of themselves, but do not
think any thoughts connected with feelings. Remain focused on the
mind in & of itself, but do not think any thoughts connected with
mind. Remain focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, but do
not think any thoughts connected with mental qualities.' With the
stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters the second
jhana...
— MN 125
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

mindfulness of the body (including the more difficult ones I suppose) are essential for enlightenment

§ 42. Whoever pervades the great ocean with his awareness encompasses
whatever rivulets flow down into the ocean. In the same way, whoever
develops & pursues mindfulness immersed in the body encompasses
whatever skillful qualities are on the side of clear knowing.
When one thing is practiced & pursued, the body is calmed, the mind
is calmed, thinking & evaluating are stilled, and all qualities on
the side of clear knowing go to the culmination of their development.
Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body.
When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear
knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, obsessions are
uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness
immersed in the body.

Those who do not taste mindfulness of the body do not taste the
Deathless. Those who taste mindfulness of the body taste the
Deathless.
Those who are heedless of mindfulness of the body are heedless of the
Deathless.
Those who comprehend mindfulness of the body comprehend the Deathless.
— AN 1.225,
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

steadying your mind, concentrating it useful for satipatthana practice

§ 36. Directing & Not Directing the Mind. Ananda, if a monk or nun
remains with mind well established in the four frames of reference,
he/she may be expected to realize greater-than-ever distinction.
There is the case of a monk who remains focused on the body in & of
itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress
with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body
in & of itself, a fever based on the body arises within his body, or
there is sluggishness in his awareness, or his mind becomes scattered
externally. He should then direct his mind to any inspiring theme
[Comm: such as recollection of the Buddha]. As his mind is directed
to any inspiring theme, delight arises within him. In one who feels
delight, rapture arises. In one whose mind is enraptured, the body
grows serene. His body serene, he feels pleasure. As he feels
pleasure, his mind grows concentrated. He reflects, 'I have attained
the aim to which my mind was directed. Let me withdraw [my mind from
the inspiring theme].' He withdraws & engages neither in directed
thought nor in evaluation. He discerns, 'I am not thinking or
evaluating. I am inwardly mindful & at ease.'
Furthermore, he remains focused on feelings... mind... mental
qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting
aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains
thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, a fever based on
mental qualities arises within his body, or there is sluggishness in
his awareness, or his mind becomes scattered externally. He should
then direct his mind to any inspiring theme. As his mind is directed
to any inspiring theme, delight arises within him. In one who feels
delight, rapture arises. In one whose mind is enraptured, the body
grows serene. His body serene, he is sensitive to pleasure. As he
feels pleasure, his mind grows concentrated. He reflects, 'I have
attained the aim to which my mind was directed. Let me withdraw.' He
withdraws & engages neither in directed thought nor in evaluation. He
discerns, 'I am not thinking or evaluating. I am inwardly mindful &
at ease.'

This, Ananda, is development based on directing. And what is
development based on not directing? A monk, when not directing his
mind to external things, discerns, 'My mind is not directed to
external things. It is not attentive to what is in front or behind.
It is released & undirected. And furthermore I remain focused on the
body in & of itself. I am ardent, alert, mindful, & at ease.'
When not directing his mind to external things, he discerns, 'My mind
is not directed to external things. It is not attentive to what is in
front or behind. It is released & undirected. And furthermore I
remain focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of
themselves. I am ardent, alert, mindful, & at ease.'
This, Ananda, is development based on not directing.
Now, Ananda, I have taught you development based on directing and
development based on not directing. What a teacher should do out of
compassion for his disciples, seeking their welfare, that I have done
for you. Over there are [places to sit at] the foot of trees. Over
there are empty dwellings. Practice jhana, Ananda. Do not be
heedless. Do not be remorseful in the future. That is our instruction
to you all.
— SN 47.10
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Re: MN 10. Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta

Post by rowyourboat »

knowing the best satipattana meditation to use at any given time

"Suppose that there is a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He does not take note of1 his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry, or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is not rewarded with clothing or wages or gifts. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful cook does not pick up on the theme of his own master.

"In the same way, there are cases where a foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on the body in & of itself, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements2 are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact.3 He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind does not become concentrated, his defilements are not abandoned. He does not take note of that fact. As a result, he is not rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, nor with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the foolish, inexperienced, unskillful monk does not take note of his own mind.4

"Now suppose that there is a wise, experienced, skillful cook who has presented a king or a king's minister with various kinds of curry: mainly sour, mainly bitter, mainly peppery, mainly sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline, salty or non-salty. He takes note of his master, thinking, 'Today my master likes this curry, or he reaches out for that curry, or he takes a lot of this curry or he praises that curry. Today my master likes mainly sour curry... Today my master likes mainly bitter curry... mainly peppery curry... mainly sweet curry... alkaline curry... non-alkaline curry... salty curry... Today my master likes non-salty curry, or he reaches out for non-salty curry, or he takes a lot of non-salty curry, or he praises non-salty curry.' As a result, he is rewarded with clothing, wages, & gifts. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful cook picks up on the theme of his own master.

"In the same way, there are cases where a wise, experienced, skillful monk remains focused on the body in & of itself... feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. As he remains thus focused on mental qualities in & of themselves, his mind becomes concentrated, his defilements are abandoned. He takes note of that fact. As a result, he is rewarded with a pleasant abiding here & now, together with mindfulness & alertness. Why is that? Because the wise, experienced, skillful monk picks up on the theme of his own mind."
SN 47.8
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