YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:09 pm


Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:28 pm


SarathW
Posts: 8014
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby SarathW » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:15 am

Hi Starter
This is a very good post. I have a great respect for the knowledge you have.
However, I am not yet convinced that there is a clear cut separation of Sotapanna from Sakdagami etc.
If I want to climb Mount Everest I will know when I get to the base camp one(1) and the next is base camp two.
But they are just arbitrary sign posts.

Don’t you think that the belief that there is something called Sotapanna exist is also another view?
However I do not condemn the people who use these terms for study and planning purposes.

Please forgive me for my doubt but I like to get your opinion.
Metta
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:17 am


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:20 pm


Coyote
Posts: 845
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Coyote » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:27 pm

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:13 pm


Coyote
Posts: 845
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 12:42 pm
Location: Wales - UK

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Coyote » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:57 pm

"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
Iti 26

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:11 pm


User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:19 pm

I think the suttas are not clear on it. But in my eyes it doesn't really matter, because one could look at it this way: Either stream entry will be with a moment of the 6 senses shutting down or not. If the practice is right, it will lead to it either way. It is not like you can become a sotapanna by doing it or by wanting it, it's not a graduation. So having the knowledge of how it will roughly be like won't do much. Or at least shouldn't.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:50 pm


User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby reflection » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:29 pm

Those can happen at later moment. But as I sort of said, I don't feel the discussion is really useful. For those who are practicing toward sotapanna, it wouldn't matter. For those who are already, it also doesn't matter. It could in theory only be useful for people who think they are sotapanna but aren't. But will they change their view depending on what some people on a forum say? I think not. If anything, I think views would only be solidified. One would need a good teacher one trusts to convince one is wrong, if that is the case.

Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Nyana » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:53 am


starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:10 pm

Bhante Anandajoti has kindly provided his translation for the concluding paragraph of MN 48:

‘‘Evaṃ sattaṅgasamannāgatassa kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvakassa
“Thus, monks, for an ariyan disciple endowed (samannāgata) with seven factors

dhammatā susamanniṭṭhā hoti sotāpattiphalasacchikiriyāya.
he normally seeks for the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry.

Evaṃ sattaṅgasamannāgato kho, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako
Thus, monks, an ariyan disciple endowed with seven factors

sotāpattiphalasamannāgato hotī.’’ ti
is endowed with the fruit of stream-entry.”

It appears to me that an ariyan disciple who has reached the first stage of enlightenment is already endowed with the 7 factors described in MN 48 (my understanding is that these seven factors are established in him but not yet culminated in him, which will be culminated when he obtain the fruit of stream entry); so those who haven't established these seven factors in them are not yet ariyan disciples.

As to the comment "One would need a good teacher one trusts to convince one is wrong, if that is the case", is there a better teacher than the Buddha? Why did the Buddha teach us the suttas like MN 48?

Thanks and metta!

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Aug 10, 2013 9:53 pm

SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering
http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutt ... n-entering

1) The eye is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise … The ear … The nose … The tongue … The body … The mind ...
2) Forms are impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise … Sounds … Odours … Tastes … Tactile objects … Mental phenomena …
3) Eye-consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise ... Ear-consciousness … Nose-consciousness … Tongue-consciousness … Body-consciousness … Mind-consciousness ...
4) Eye-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise … Ear-contact … Nose-contact … Tongue-contact … Body-contact … Mind-contact …
5) Feeling born of eye-contact is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise ... Feeling born of ear-contact … Feeling born of nose-contact … Feeling born of tongue-contact … Feeling born of body-contact … Feeling born of mind-contact …
6) Perception of forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise … Perception of sounds … Perception of odours … Perception of tastes … Perception of tactile objects … Perception of mental phenomena …
7) Volition regarding forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise. Volition regarding sounds … Volition regarding odours … Volition regarding tastes … Volition regarding tactile objects … Volition regarding mental phenomena
8) Craving for forms is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise ... Craving for sounds … Craving for odours … Craving for tastes … Craving for tactile objects … Craving for mental phenomena …
9) The earth element is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise ... The water element … The heat element … The air element … The space element … The consciousness element … [Since aggregate consciousness exists only in relationship to sense objects (nama-rupa), hence consciousness is considered as one element of the mundane or phenomenal world].

Form ... Feeling … Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is impermanent, changing, becoming otherwise.
One who places faith in these teachings and resolves on them thus is called a faith-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness (the noble path, to stream entry), entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

One for whom these teachings are accepted thus after being pondered to a sufficient degree with wisdom is called a Dhamma-follower, one who has entered the fixed course of rightness (the noble path, to stream entry), entered the plane of superior persons, transcended the plane of the worldlings. He is incapable of doing any deed by reason of which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal realm, or in the domain of ghosts; he is incapable of passing away without having realized the fruit of stream-entry.

One who knows and sees these teachings thus is called a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.


Thanks to this sutta and the very helpful footnotes at http://www.palicanon.org/, today I realized that the faith-followers (who accept and practice the Teaching on trust, relies on faith as the vehicle of progress) and the Dhamma-followers (who accept and practice the Teaching through examination and understanding, relies on wisdom as the vehicle of progress) are the two classes of noble disciples who are practising for realization of the fruit of stream-entry. Both should have reached the first of the eight stages of awakening (?). However, I'm a bit puzzled by the obtaining of the Dhamma eye -- it seems to me that the faith-followers (and probably also the Dhamma followers) haven't obtained the Dhamma eye yet. [html]So those who have obtained the Dhamma eye have actually reached the 2nd stage of awakening -- stream-entry (?).[/html]

I suppose both types should really know the above highlighted teachings, without mistaking e.g mind consciousness as "true self", otherwise s/he can't enter the noble path. Among all, mind consciousness is the most difficult one to break through. For the relevant discussion see What's mind consciousness and why it's a magic show? viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9409&hilit=+mind+consciousness.

Metta to all!

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Sep 14, 2013 3:21 pm

Sn 2.1 PTS: Sn 222-238
Ratana Sutta: The Jewel Discourse [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/snp/snp.2.01.piya.html; with some changes]
...

8. "As a post deep-planted in the earth stands unshaken by the winds from the four quarters, so, too, I declare is the righteous man who comprehends with wisdom the Noble Truths. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this truth may there be happiness.

9. "Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom (the Buddha), even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this truth may there be happiness.

10. "With his gaining of insight he abandons three states of mind, namely self-illusion/self identity view (Sakkaya-ditthi), doubt (Vicikiccha), and attachment to sila (precepts/virtues) and rites/rituals (Silabbataparamasa), should there be any. He is also fully freed from the four states of woe, and therefore, incapable of committing the six major wrongdoings. This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this (asseveration of the) truth may there be happiness.

11. "Any evil action he may still do by deed, word or thought, he is incapable of concealing it; since it has been proclaimed that such concealing is impossible for one who has seen the Path (N8P). This precious jewel is the Sangha. By this truth may there be happiness. ..."

It seems that the faith follower "comprehends" (conceptually) the 4NT and establishes his faith on the Buddha-Dhamma, whereas the stream winner "realizes"/"sees" the 4NT. Those who have gained the "Dhamma eye" should have reached stream entry (the 2nd stage of awakening), who are not yet perfected in virtue and could still do "evil actions", but not "the six major wrongdoings", to my understanding.

The six great wrongs: murdering one's mother, murdering one's father, murdering an arahant, wounding a Buddha, causing a schism in the Sangha, or pernicious false beliefs (niyata micca ditthi), including choosing anyone other than a Buddha as one's foremost teacher?

Metta to all!

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:04 am

Ud 5.3 Kutthi Sutta The Leper:

Then the Blessed One, having encompassed the mind of the entire assembly with his mind, asked himself, "Now who here is capable of understanding the Dhamma?" He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., suffering, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a foothold in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, ..."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html (with minor change: "awareness" to "mind"; "stress" to 'suffering")

Concerning the "Dhamma eye", one needs not only intellectual understanding, but deeper penetration of "Whatever is subject to arising is all subject to cessation" to give up the desire to be in control due to self delusion. If uncertainties/insecurity/fear is still there, then one hasn't truly gained "the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye", hasn't truly broken the fetter of self delusion and doubt and enter the "stream" (the 2nd stage of enlightenment) yet, to my understanding.

Your correction and input would be appreciated. Metta to all!

User avatar
Mkoll
Posts: 6269
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 pm
Location: California

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby Mkoll » Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:12 pm

Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:55 pm

Greetings!

Bhante Anandajoti has kindly provided another translation of the cited teaching in Suppabuddhassa kuṭṭhissa, which changed my understanding of the fetter of doubt and the "Dhamma eye":

Suppabuddhassa kuṭṭhissa
to the leper Suppabuddha

"tasmiṁ yeva āsane virajaṁ vītamalaṁ Dhammacakkhuṁ udapādi:
on that very seat, the dust-free, stainless Vision-of-the-Dhamma arose:

“Yaṁ kiñci samudayadhammaṁ, sabbaṁ taṁ nirodhadhamman-ti.”
“Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of ceasing.”

Atha kho Suppabuddho kuṭṭhi diṭṭhadhammo pattadhammo
Then the leper Suppabuddha having seen the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma,

viditadhammo pariyogāḷhadhammo tiṇṇavicikiccho vigatakathaṁkatho
understood the Dhamma, penetrated the Dhamma, crossed over uncertainty, being without doubts,

vesārajjappatto aparappaccayo Satthusāsane, ...
attained full confidence, having become independent of others in the Teacher's teaching, ..."

[]

I agree with Bhante that what the leper Suppabuddha is not in doubt about is the veracity of the teaching -- specifically about the nature of the 2nd and 3rd noble truths, or conditionality, which is in accordance with the previously cited SN Chapter IV - 25 Okkantisaṃyutta Connected Discourses on Entering. The comprehension of the first three NT will irreversibly lead to the understanding of the 4th North Truth, and the breaking of the three fetters.

I suppose that this obtaining of "the Dhamma eye" (the vision of the Dhamma) would make the leper obtain the first stage of the enlightenment, not the second. I don't imagine that he could have comprehended the 4th Noble Truth -- the Noble 8-factored Path within that short moment. The comprehension of the 4th Noble Truth would mean that one has penetrated all 8 factors and has entered the path, or reached the second stage of the enlightenment, to my understanding.

Thanks for Mkoll's input, and welcome more. Metta to all!

PS: I recommend Bhante Anandajoti's sutta translations containing both Pali and English, which I believe are closer to the original meaning and can be found using the search engine: http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/
Last edited by starter on Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

starter
Posts: 875
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Postby starter » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:36 pm

Greetings!

I'd like to add that the obtaining of the vision of the Dhamma “Whatever has the nature of arising, all that has the nature of ceasing” also makes one penetrate the 1st NT, in addition to the 2nd and 3rd NT, as I commented in a previous post of this thread:

"All conditioned dhamma are anicca, and hence are dukkha (and anatta)-- he thus understood the Buddha's first Noble Truth of Dukkha, and then the second Noble Truth -- the origination of suffering: "the craving that makes for further becoming (further "arisingdhamma" that are destined to cease). Next the Third Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering: "the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving"."

Happy Uposatha and metta to all!

Starter


Return to “General Theravāda Meditation”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine