Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

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starter
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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by starter »

Hello Zom,

Thanks for your comments.

The following sutta is helpful for this topic:

"There is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner,' ...

"And what is the manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner'? There is the case where a monk is a learner. He discerns, as it actually is, that 'This is suffering... This is the origination of suffering... This is the cessation of suffering... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of suffering.' This is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner reflects, 'Is there outside of this [Dhamma & Vinaya] any contemplative or brahman who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One?' And he discerns, 'No, there is no contemplative or brahman outside of this Dhamma & Vinaya who teaches the true, genuine, & accurate Dhamma like the Blessed One.' This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... wisdom. He sees clear through with wisdom their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation, but he does not touch them with his body [he does not yet possess the five faculties; these faculties are yet to be developed and culminated in him]. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

— SN 48.53

By the way, to my understanding the right view mentioned in MN 48 is not only the breaking of self-identity view and the understanding of dependent origination/cessation, but the right understanding/knowledge of the entire four noble truths including the "stream" -- the noble 8-fold path.

Metta to all,

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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Zom »

"There is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner,' ...
"Learner" is "sekha" here (that is - all types of ariyas except arahant, who is "not-learner" / "asekha").
By the way, to my understanding the right view mentioned in MN 48 is not only the breaking of self-identity view and the understanding of dependent origination/cessation, but the right understanding/knowledge of the entire four noble truths including the "stream" -- the noble 8-fold path.
To my understaning, 7 points here is the detailed explanation of the "Dhamma Mirror" given by Buddha in DN 16.
Plus, they are interesting in explaining the meaning of that weird phrase "lokuttara ñāṇa". Elsewhere in the suttas there is a mention, that one of the sotapanna's feature is that "knowledge, not shared by ordinary people". It is commented as the "knowledge of experiencing nibbana". However, MN 48 shows clearly that this is not the case. This kind of knowledge is not something mystic, but simply the knowledge of a person who practises Dhamma and found out for himself that he has such and such qualities and such and such thoughts. It is "lokuttara" only in the sense that it helps to reach nibbana in some future time. Not more than that. Later commentaries, of course, with the help of Abhidhamma misted up all this and placed the possibility of attaining that "lokuttara knowledge" on the highest level possible, possibly, that is of arahant. That's how sotapanna became "unreally high" level of attainment ,)

By the way, Ven. Bodhi made comments on the last phrase of this sutta:

Therefore I understand the first sentence to be saying that this person had already, in the past, well sought out the nature/character needed for realization of the fruit of stream-entry. But at present, when he possesses these seven qualities, he has actually acquired the fruit of stream-entry.
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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Parth »

For a sotapanna to Arhat the fruit immediately succeeds the path. One in realistic sense of the term cannot find a sotapanna (and so on) maggatha person. Since a maggatha person exists only for few split seconds or so on.

Regards

Parth
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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by starter »

Hi Zom, parth and other friends,

Thanks for the input. I'd like to share a description of Sotāpanna:

Ud 5.3
PTS: Ud 48
Kutthi Sutta: The Leper
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a footing in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message, ..."

For how is one who has gained fearlessness, see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

To my understanding, one who has "gained independence from others with regard to the Teacher's message" is the one who has found the noble 8-fold path and located himself on the "map to liberation" (the Dhamma), and has figured out how to walk the path from his location and is destined for nibbana. Those "others" probable don't include the Buddha, since he still needs the guidance of the Buddha-Dhamma to walk the path.

Metta to all,

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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by starter »

Hi, thanks for Mike's thread http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... &start=100" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, which discussed ‘yaṃ kiñci samudayadhammaṃ sabbaṃ taṃ nirodhadhamman’ti ["Anything whatsoever that is of the nature to arise, all of that is of the nature to cease"]. It made me think why this "Dhamma Eye" is one of the "stock descriptions" of a stream enterer, and what exactly the Buddha's first Sotāpanna disciple Venerable Kondañña understood during the Buddha's teaching of his first discourse about the four Noble Truths. My feeling is that Venerable Kondañña might have gained the following insight:

All conditioned dhamma are anicca, and hence are dukkha (and anatta)-- he thus understood the Buddha's first Noble Truth of Dukkha, and then the second Noble Truth -- the origination of suffering: "the craving that makes for further becoming (further "arisingdhamma" that are destined to cease). Next the Third Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering: "the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving". Finally the fourth Noble Truth of the way of practice leading to the cessation of suffering: "precisely this Noble Eightfold Path — right view, right resolve/thinking, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

I'm pretty sure that during his first discourse the Buddha must have taught his first five disciples much more details about his middle way N8P instead of only the names of "right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration" that we inherited now in SN 56.11 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html]. And Venerable Kondañña might have also understood then that right view of the 4NT leads to right resolve/thinking, which leads to right speech, right action, and right livelihood, which leads to right effort of renunciation from sensual desires, culmination of sense restraint, wakefulness (of five hindrances), and full awareness and right/clear comprehension, which leads to right mindfulness of body/feeling/mind/Dhamma, which leads to right Samadhi, which leads to right knowledge and right liberation. Probably with such understandings Venerable Kondañña entered the path to the stream (N8P).

I don't think that the understanding "things arise and pass away" or "things come and go" alone is enough to enter the path to the stream, without the true understanding of the 4NT. Only the insight into the anicca/dukkha( & anatta) nature of all conditioned dhammas would lead to such true understanding of the 4NT (not only conceptually) and hence the first (out of the eight) stage of enlightenment Sotāpanna.

Metta to all!
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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by starter »

Zom wrote: To my understaning, 7 points here is the detailed explanation of the "Dhamma Mirror" given by Buddha in DN 16.
Plus, they are interesting in explaining the meaning of that weird phrase "lokuttara ñāṇa". Elsewhere in the suttas there is a mention, that one of the sotapanna's feature is that "knowledge, not shared by ordinary people". It is commented as the "knowledge of experiencing nibbana". However, MN 48 shows clearly that this is not the case. This kind of knowledge is not something mystic, but simply the knowledge of a person who practises Dhamma and found out for himself that he has such and such qualities and such and such thoughts. It is "lokuttara" only in the sense that it helps to reach nibbana in some future time. Not more than that. Later commentaries, of course, with the help of Abhidhamma misted up all this and placed the possibility of attaining that "lokuttara knowledge" on the highest level possible, possibly, that is of arahant. That's how sotapanna became "unreally high" level of attainment ,)"
I agree with Zom's above-quoted comments. I'd like to add a sutta indicating that the attainment of sotapanna doesn't require the knowledge of experiencing nibbana:

SN 48.53:

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... Samadhi ... wisdom. He sees clear through with wisdom their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation, but he does not touch them with his body [he does not yet possess the five faculties; these faculties are yet to be developed and culminated in him]. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

As indicated in this sutta, the monk didn't "touch" the faculty of Samadhi "with his body", so he couldn't have experienced nibbana.

In addition, I'd like to know the pali word(s) for "endowed" and "possessed" in the following concluding paragraph from MN 48; was the same pali word used for both?:

Ven. Thanissaro: "When the noble disciple is endowed with these seven characteristics, he is ready to realize the fruits of the entry into the stream of the Teaching."

Ven. Bodhi:"When a noble disciple is thus possessed of seven factors, he has well sought the character for realisation of the fruit of steam-entry. When a noble disciple is thus possessed of seven factors, he possesses the fruit of stream-entry."

Since the two translations are so different, I'd appreciate the Pali for the papragraph, together with a word to word translation.

Thanks for your help and much metta,

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Nyana
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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Nyana »

starter wrote:I agree with Zom's above-quoted comments. I'd like to add a sutta indicating that the attainment of sotapanna doesn't require the knowledge of experiencing nibbana...
Nibbāna means extinguishment. With the fruition of stream-entry a stream entrant has realized the extinguishment of the first three fetters. They know that they have realized this extinguishment. This knowledge of extinguishment differentiates them from ordinary people.
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by SarathW »

Hi Starter
This is a very good post. I have a great respect for the knowledge you have.
However, I am not yet convinced that there is a clear cut separation of Sotapanna from Sakdagami etc.
If I want to climb Mount Everest I will know when I get to the base camp one(1) and the next is base camp two.
But they are just arbitrary sign posts.

Don’t you think that the belief that there is something called Sotapanna exist is also another view?
However I do not condemn the people who use these terms for study and planning purposes.

Please forgive me for my doubt but I like to get your opinion.
Metta
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Sotappana: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by reflection »

starter wrote:
SN 48.53:

"Furthermore, the monk who is a learner discerns the five faculties: the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... Samadhi ... wisdom. He sees clear through with wisdom their destiny, excellence, rewards, & consummation, but he does not touch them with his body [he does not yet possess the five faculties; these faculties are yet to be developed and culminated in him]. This too is a manner of reckoning whereby a monk who is a learner, standing at the level of a learner, can discern that 'I am a learner.'

As indicated in this sutta, the monk didn't "touch" the faculty of Samadhi "with his body", so he couldn't have experienced nibbana.
This says nothing about nibbana as nibbana is not an element of samadhi, like it is not an element of conviction, persistence, etc.

This sutta speaks about it also:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi, at the Eastern Gatehouse. There he addressed Ven. Sariputta: "Sariputta, do you take it on conviction that the faculty of conviction, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation? Do you take it on conviction that the faculty of persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation?"

"Lord, it's not that I take it on conviction in the Blessed One that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation. And as for me, I have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment. I have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."

"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
In my eyes it quite clearly says who seen nibbana (the deathless) know that the faculties lead towards nibbana (as an arahant). Those who have this wisdom of the faculties are indeed the stream winners. This also seems to be spoken by Sariputta before he was an arahant as he speaks about having no doubt about the goal of nibbana, but not about being fully there yet. There is also this sutta:
Then to Sariputta the wanderer, as he heard this Dhamma exposition, there arose the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye: "Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation."

Even if just this is the Dhamma,
you have penetrated
to the Sorrowless (asoka) State
unseen, overlooked (by us)
for many myriads of aeons.
Then Sariputta the wanderer went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the wanderer saw him coming from afar and, on seeing him, said, "Bright are your faculties, my friend; pure your complexion, and clear. Could it be that you have attained the Deathless?"

"Yes, my friend, I have attained the Deathless. "
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I don't think Sariputta went from not having right view straight to being an arahant. So 'attaining the Deathless' is a glimpse of nibbana, not full enlightenment. It's like seeing the water in the well, but not being able to drink it yet, which we see in the sutta below (again with "not touching with his body").
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. [2] It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. [3] In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Agreed, here directly seeing nibbana is not as clearly indicated as in the previous two suttas, but combine the three and I think it makes a pretty strong case - as far as suttas can make a case - that "looking into the well and knowing water" means seeing nibbana.

Now, I must say I don't like talking about 'stages' and 'attainments' too much, because I think it usually isn't very productive. So I think I'll leave it at this. But I think it was good putting these suttas out here.
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by starter »

SarathW wrote:However, I am not yet convinced that there is a clear cut separation of Sotapanna from Sakdagami etc.
Hello friends,

Thanks for all your input. To my understanding, here are the differences between these stages of enlightenment:

1) Sotapanna: the first three low fetters are broken;
2) Sakdagami: the first three low fetters are broken, and the other two low fetters (sensual desire and ill will) are significantly weakened but not yet broken;
3) Anagami: all the five low fetters are broken;
4) Arahant: all 10 fetters are broken.

I think knowing the stage of one's practice is necessary, so that one can locate and orient himself on the "map" to liberation, with the goals and destination clearly comprehended.

Studying such a topic is helpful for breaking the wrong views about these stages of achievements. I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling). A Sotapanna wouldn't have had such a meditative level to reach the cessation of perception and feeling, which is nibbana (of course a wisdom-liberated arahant dosen't have to attain cessation of perception and feeling, but the extinguishments of the 10 fetters). Not only a sotapanna can't experience it, but also an anagami can't experience it -- I don't believe an anagami can really reach the cessation of perception and feeling, which is the attainment of an arahant. Such wrong views could be dangerous as we discussed earlier in the following thread: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... itch+black

Metta to allo!

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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Coyote »

starter wrote: I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling).
Why are you surprised? Isn't it the (classical) Theravada understanding that all paths and fruits take nibbana as an object?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Nyana »

Coyote wrote:
starter wrote: I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling).
Why are you surprised? Isn't it the (classical) Theravada understanding that all paths and fruits take nibbana as an object?
The difference is that the path and fruition consciousnesses occur together with both perception and feeling and nibbāna as the object of the path and fruition consciousnesses is distinctly different from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Coyote »

Nyana wrote:
Coyote wrote:
starter wrote: I was surprised to hear some teachers' comments such as a Sotapanna must very briefly experience nibbana (what they mean is the cessation of perception and feeling).
Why are you surprised? Isn't it the (classical) Theravada understanding that all paths and fruits take nibbana as an object?
The difference is that the path and fruition consciousnesses occur together with both perception and feeling and nibbāna as the object of the path and fruition consciousnesses is distinctly different from the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.
Thanks for clarifying. Is this from the Abhidhamma?
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by Nyana »

Coyote wrote:Is this from the Abhidhamma?
Yes, from the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and the Kathāvatthu, etc.
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Re: Sotāpanna: the path and fruit taught by the Buddha

Post by reflection »

I think the suttas are not clear on it. But in my eyes it doesn't really matter, because one could look at it this way: Either stream entry will be with a moment of the 6 senses shutting down or not. If the practice is right, it will lead to it either way. It is not like you can become a sotapanna by doing it or by wanting it, it's not a graduation. So having the knowledge of how it will roughly be like won't do much. Or at least shouldn't.
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