The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:18 am

There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:34 am

binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responded to.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Alex123 » Mon May 13, 2013 10:40 am

dhamma follower wrote:[1] "Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view?


So what? One learns conceptually what is path and what is not, and then one follows it.

dhamma follower wrote:What is, for you, the meaning of sukha vipassana?


Some people don't have that much obscurations, so their samādhi does not have to be as strong. If it works for you, then great. I have lots of defilements.
"dust to dust...."
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby binocular » Mon May 13, 2013 10:44 am

tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responded to.


What business should not be or should be responded to?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 13, 2013 10:53 am

binocular wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
binocular wrote:There is a person who appears to be proposing to know the one and only truth about what the Buddha really taught and meant. And this person sometimes has a negative attitude toward others.

I point out that this sort of thing is to be expected in this world. That's just how it is. There is no use to get upset over it.
Was I upset? The last time I checked (10 seconds ago) I have not been; however, that does not mean that such business should not be responed to.


What business should not be or should be responded to?
Start a new thread.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Mon May 13, 2013 1:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... :?

Metta,
Retro. :)

Ha! "puggalaphobia." Who knows, maybe the Puggalavadins were reacting to puggalaphobia. Not that they didn't get carried away also. But you're right, the Buddha cleary did not make these artificial attempts to sanitize his teachings of all personal speech.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:31 am

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Post unfinished, please replace by the next one
Last edited by dhamma follower on Tue May 14, 2013 6:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 14, 2013 6:47 am

dhamma follower wrote:
kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description. It's rather all about a work of understanding.
Part of the problem here is that your conception of "formal" practice is a straw-man that poorly reflects the real world.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:49 am

kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

IMHO, because of the core of both developments (samatha and vipassana) is understanding (of different kinds), I don't think we should imitate the behavior of what is described in the texts. Rather i would assess my level of understanding first. I can imagine very well that when understanding has been developed to a certain stage, living in seclusion will seem to be the most natural thing to do. And when the danger of sense pleasure has really been seen by wisdom, nothing will be better than a forest-gone recluse life devoting to the escape from sense pleasure.

“Monks, these five are forest-gone. What five?
“One is forest-gone out of folly and blindness; one out of evil desires and longings;
one foolish and mind-tossed; one at the thought: ”It is praised by Buddhas and
their disciples”; and one is forest-gone just because his wants are little, just for
contentment, just to mark (his own faults) 8
, just for seclusion, just because it is
the very thing 9
.
“Verily, monks, of these five who have gone to the forest, he who has gone just
because his wants are little, for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for
seclusion, just because it is the very thing-- he of the five is topmost, best,
foremost, highest, elect.
“Monks, just as from the cow comes milk, from milk cream, from cream butter,
from butter ghee, from ghee the skim of ghee which is reckoned topmost; even so,
monks, of these five forest-gone, he who has gone just because his wants are little,
for contentment, to mark (his own faults), for seclusion, and just because it is the
very thing–he of the five is topmost, best, foremost, highest, elect.”


Gradual sayings, Part III, Ch XIX, 181- Forest gone
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 6:58 am

mikenz66 wrote:And I have given you quotes from at least two other teachers (and you've added Sayadaw T yourself) who say essentially the same thing. So it's not something unique to Ajahn Sujin. How could it be, when it's the teaching of the Buddha? Of course, anyone can say that they are not operating with the "idea of someone who can". Whether they really are another matter.

:anjali:
Mike


I would not say that Sayadaw U Tejaniya is teaching the same thing. He is saying many things similar and I believe his understanding of the Dhamma will agree with AS's.

I can't comment on the others because I don't know them well enough. But it's good to know that some teachers are moving in that direction too.

Brgds,
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby dhamma follower » Tue May 14, 2013 7:03 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... :?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Dear Retro,

A third option is :may be an issue of comprehension. Some people might not find that so plain stupid :-)

When I was 18 and heard about the Four Noble Truth for the first time, I thought: "it's a silly stuff".

Puggalaphobia? Nice word, but may be Ditthiphobia will be a more proper one in this case.

Brgds,

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue May 14, 2013 7:28 am

dhamma follower wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

dhamma follower wrote:As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise).

I'm not sure whether this is an "English as a second language" issue, or whether this is actually what Sujin teaches, but that is just plain stupid.

That's like saying, "as soon there's idea of a Noble Eightfold Path, it is the idea of someone who can (follow that path)"

I'm glad the Buddha didn't suffer from puggalaphobia... :?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Dear Retro,

A third option is :may be an issue of comprehension. Some people might not find that so plain stupid :-)

When I was 18 and heard about the Four Noble Truth for the first time, I thought: "it's a silly stuff".

Puggalaphobia? Nice word, but may be Ditthiphobia will be a more proper one in this case.
You have totally missed the point here. The suttas make it quite plainly clear that one can use conventional language to speak accurately and asutely about the Dhamma. Just because one uses impersonal abhidhamma-speak does not mean one better understands the Dhamma than one who uses sutta language. What we have seen displayed with this Sujin abhidhamma-speak in a muddling of the Dhamma, making it look like a form of hard determinism.

"As soon as there's idea of a method, it is the idea of someone who can (attend to the realities as they arise)." You are seriously missing something here.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby kirk5a » Tue May 14, 2013 1:37 pm

dhamma follower wrote:
kirk5a wrote:When I follow up on the explanation given in the Visuddhimagga for the manner of practice for the "sukkha-vipassaka" what I find is instructions to go on solitary retreat, direct attention to the various aspects of the body, discern the elements, make effort and develop concentration.


The part on elements is in the Concentration Chapter, I don't think it represents the manner of practice for the dry insight worker as a whole. The chapter on Understanding reflects a larger spectrum of objects for insights: four primaries, 18 elements, 12 bases, 5 aggregates. And apart from the going to a secluded place, I don't see anything like a formal practice in the description on the development of concentration based on four elements. It's rather all about a work of understanding.

Yes, it's in the "concentration" chapter, and we are referred there from the "understanding" chapter. Which explicitly demonstrates that concentration, individual effort, "method," "formal practice" - these are all how the Visuddhimagga describe the practice of the "dry-insight worker."
Vis.M XVIII wrote:But one whose vehicle is pure insight, or that same aforesaid one whose vehicle
is serenity, discerns the four elements in brief or in detail in one of the various ways
given in the chapter on the definition of the four elements (XI.27ff.).


Turning to that chapter, it says:
41. So firstly, one of quick understanding who wants to develop this meditation
subject should go into solitary retreat.
Then he should advert to his own entire
material body and discern the elements in brief in this way: “In this body what
is stiffenedness or harshness is the earth element, what is cohesion or fluidity25
[352] is the water element, what is maturing (ripening) or heat is the fire element,
what is distension or movement is the air element.” And he should advert and
give attention to it and review it again and again as “earth element, water
element,” that is to say, as mere elements, not a living being, and soulless.
42. As he makes effort in this way it is not long before concentration arises in
him, which is reinforced by understanding that illuminates the classification of
the elements, and which is only access and does not reach absorption because it
has states with individual essences as its object.

http://www.aimwell.org/News/news.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:53 am

A conversation with Sujin and Nina last year about intellectual understanding :
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... age/131507
Than Acharn Sujin, Wang Nam Khiew, 16th, noon 1m)

TA Sujin: Everyone has to develop right understanding.

N: Maybe we are impatient or we don't have enough courage...

TA: ignorance, and clinging, until it's less and less; reality can appear to
pa~n~na as it is, now it appears differently; like the four primaries (rupas):
they do not appear to seeing, but what appears (to seeing) is that which arises
with them (color/vanna), so it's like the transformation of the four primaries
into different things, like magicians; and it takes quite a long time to learn
how the magician can do (his tricks); and this is much more (difficult) than
(learning) the magician (tricks), so it takes longer time to understand the way
the dhammas do (their tricks) .

N: But we're now in the current, pleasant objects, the mountains, the trees, and
we like it, just pleasant feelings.

TA: A reality, pa~n~na can understand it, it's conditioned, it goes away before
we can know what it is; it's like: as soon as it's object, it's gone, so the
other object appears, when pa~n~na understands that; otherwise the self tries,
to cling, and thinking out whatever it is, nama, rupa and so forth, and paccaya;
but actually intellectual understanding just conditions detachment from
clinging, when time comes.

N: Intellectual understanding....

TA: ... is condition for having less attachment

N: Even intellectual understanding

TA: But it's not as effective right understanding as direct

N: No

TA: But it can see the difference between the two

N: It's not so easy to know what is direct understanding

TA: When awareness arises it's different, just a little different, but it has to
be there; it's like seeing and hearing, it seems like they arise together; so,
as that object is still there, right understanding is another moment, like
seeing and hearing, but it appears, so pa~n~na can understand that, no other
object, only that object which is there, seems like appearing, by nimitta.

N: It's more pleasant than yesterday... that museum :-)

TA: Yes, nothing can be compared to the moment of understanding, it's so
precious, to understand; from birth: no understanding, until learning the
Teachings, to understand; the object is exactly the same, from aeons and aeons,
visible object can be seen, and the other objects cannot be seen, so there can
be understanding of everything when there is more and more intellectual
understanding, which will condition direct understanding, (it) keeps on going by
conditions, otherwise (it's) 'I' and 'how I can...' or 'why...'
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:29 am

robertk wrote: . . .
And the point is?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:23 pm

Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is?

"This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom." (from the original post)

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is?

"This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom." (from the original post)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Which does not really answer the question in relationship to the post it was a response to. Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby retrofuturist » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:14 am

Greetings,

Huh? Which post... Kirk's post from May 2013?

(perhaps the posts after Robert's should be removed... :geek: )

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


Dharma Wheel (Mahayana / Vajrayana forum) -- Open flower ~ Open book (blog)
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:57 am

retrofuturist wrote:
(perhaps the posts after Robert's should be removed... )
Probably not. In the broader context of this thread, I'd like to hear what the point is that he trying to make by posting this dialogue.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is?

"This thread can consider the causes for panna, wisdom." (from the original post)

Metta,
Retro. :)
Which does not really answer the question in relationship to the post it was a response to. Intellectual knowledge definitely has a role to play, but it is a subservient role.

As retro said I posted this in the causes for wisdom thread. As I understand it correct intellectual understanding is the prime cause for deeper levels of understanding.
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