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the great rebirth debate - Page 190 - Dhamma Wheel

the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:12 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:00 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:31 am

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Aloka » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:33 am

Last edited by Aloka on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:43 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:35 am

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:16 am

Last edited by BlackBird on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:45 am

I belief I've said something along the following lines before; it may as well be in this thread. But since the thread is so long and I think the below can help in mutual understanding, I'll post it anyway.

Going in the direction of right view is more than just believing in rebirth or not. I'd say those who don't belief it can be closer to understanding the Dhamma than those who do and for example strive for a rebirth in heaven, or those who think it requires some sort of self. There are many other aspects of right view than just believing in rebirth. So the suttas do say annihilism is (paraphrased, can't find it now) "the foremost among second views" because that view includes some sort of acceptance of cessation already. That's something we can't say about a lot of people who do belief in rebirth.

It's also not a simple matter of choosing what we belief. Beliefs are not choices. What we belief is always based on what we experienced, how we are brought up, our personality etc. This doesn't have to be based on aversion at all. So of course people can be followers of the Buddha without believing in rebirth. If anything, their beliefs may still change over time. And although I am also convinced the Buddha taught rebirth, I think it's shortsighted to say those who spent years of their lives meditating, reading, living virtuously and kindly, but just can't accept rebirth, are not real Buddhists. In a similar fashion -and I think in a sense more correct even- I could say (but I don't) people without right view are not real Buddhists, but obviously it's not like you choose to have right view. In this sense, if you take rebirth on faith instead of insight, it is not right view either.

With metta,
Reflection

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:53 am

Look I'm not saying it's an evaluation of how good a person is because obviously you have real buddhists who might believe in rebirth and kamma -> give dana every so often and that's it. Compare that person to someone who meditates daily, keeps the precepts, but doesn't believe in rebirth or kamma. I would praise the second person more than the first.

Regarding annihilationism - It might be the foremost of wrong views, but it's still a wrong view.

I usually just keep to myself about these things, but I have been asked to thresh out why rebirth is important to me, and this is why. Without it, I do not believe one can muster enough urgency to make a real run at achieving nibbana. As I have stated before, what's the point?
Last edited by BlackBird on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:03 pm

I know it wasn't a judgement, as you made clear in your post and I respect that. But I think about how it comes across to people when they read on a respected forum that they are not considered Buddhists. Of course, you are free to say it, but I don't think it will do any good or has any real use. If anything, in my eyes it creates more of a gap between the different interpretations, making discussion more difficult. So I try to close this gap a little as I honestly belief there is not such a big difference.

Because, taking rebirth on faith (using the usual interpretation of faith) is also still wrong view. So in that sense, annihilism or taking rebirth on faith, on mere belief, are not really that different. If you see how many Buddhists in traditional countries treat the idea of rebirth, it's obvious that it is not based on right view either and so it is also not more conductive to practice.

:anjali:

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:11 pm

Last edited by BlackBird on Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:15 pm

"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:16 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:17 pm

Last edited by reflection on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:19 pm

Last edited by reflection on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BlackBird
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby BlackBird » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:29 pm

*sigh* you've extrapolated a bit too far if you're trying to include the 'realization' of rebirth within that which is knowable through insight or path/fruit. It is widely described within the suttas as a supernormal power attained through concentration practice. You have made an odd interpretation of the sutta you have quoted above, one that is in my opinion wholly inadmissible.

In my corner I have Ven. Nyanavira, whom I have already stated that I believe to be correct in his assertion of stream entry, and he stated quite categorically that rebirth is something to be taken upon trust, that even with the arising of the Dhamma-eye in him, he had to take rebirth on trust. Of course that would not be admissible evidence, but I have not seen one instance of Ven. Nyanavira making a statement that contradicts the suttas. So I have placed my trust in him.

You seem to be looking to make the suttas fit your preference here, so I don't think there's much chance at an honest discussion. Regarding mundane/supermundane duality, I very much respect Ven. Analayo's view on the matter, and it is quite true that the duality is not commonly found, when right view is spoken of it is almost always the 'supermundane' but that doesn't mean that mundane right view doesn't exist. There are some very important doctrinal points within the suttas that are only mentioned sparingly. Not that I think mundane right view is altogether that important of a distinction, the point is something doesn't have to crop up in virtually every sutta (ironically as rebirth does) to be true in nature.

I don't think your view that mundane right view is not a real dhamma is pernicious - because frankly in the end you can think that way and it doesn't make on iota of a difference, one is still set on realizing the MAIN right view, that of paticcasamupada and the four noble truths. But I do think your novel interpretation of how to realize rebirth is pernicious - Your idea that belief in rebirth is a wrong view aswell - and I would advise you turn back these two views, because it's not what the Buddha taught.

with metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:58 pm, edited 4 times in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." -

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Spiny Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny Norman » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:31 pm

"My religion is very simple - my religion is ice-cream."
Dairy Lama

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reflection
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:58 pm

Last edited by reflection on Fri Jul 05, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

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