How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
pegembara
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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby pegembara » Thu Jul 11, 2013 4:44 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Pegembra
I agree that there is a five aggregate subject to impermanence, stress (Dukka) and without an abiding soul. It is just like a driverless car I suppose.
The question is who is extending the loving kindness? Who possess the seven factors of awakening?


No one as in no entity.
It is how language functions to give an idea of a self.
For example:- Who hears?

There is only the process of hearing. No hearer and no heard. What actually hears? Where is the hearer located? Is it the eardrum, ear ossicles, cochlea, auditory nerve or brain? What is heard is nothing but vibrations. The "hearer" is an activity, not an entity.

What is the ear|(anatta) without its parts (the eardrum, ear ossicles, cochlea, auditory nerve or brain)

Image

Why now do you assume 'a being'?
Mara, have you grasped a view?
This is a heap of sheer constructions:
Here no being is found.

Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word 'chariot' is used,
So, when the aggregates are present,
There's the convention 'a being.'

It's only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

arijitmitter
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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby arijitmitter » Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:59 am

SarathW wrote:
The question is who is extending the loving kindness? Who possess the seven factors of awakening?


Cetana or consciousness is extending the loving kindness.

pegembara wrote:
There is only the process of hearing. No hearer and no heard. What actually hears? Where is the hearer located?


With every due respect why does there have to be a " searching for a black cat in a dark room where there is no cat " kind of explanation to every question ? Why do all answers have to be enigmatic ?

If you are unconscious can you hear ? No. So it is your consciousness which extends the faculty of hearing.
If you are unconscious can you write a check for helping orphans in Africa ? No. So it is your consciousness which loves and cares.

And if the next question is where is consciousness located ? It is in the mind. Where is the mind located ? In the brain. If you don't believe me ask a serial killer to extend loving kindness.

:namaste: Arijit

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Anders
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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby Anders » Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:47 am

SarathW wrote:
Anders wrote:I like the way I heard Ajahn Succito describe it in regards to a sense of identity and functioning in the world:

It's not the case that arahants have no sense of 'I'. It is just that they have no sense of "I am."


Hi Anders
I like to see more details about what he said. I check the following link but could no find any.

http://ajahnsucitto.org/articles/is-there-an-end/


Hi Sarah,

It was an evening dhamma talk at Cittavevika - don''t know if he has been writing about it or if the talk was ever transcribed.

But the gist of it (from memory) was like this:

'people get confused about how arahants can function in the world without a self. But the fact is, you need a sense of self-identity to function in the world. Without it, you have no reason to get up in the morning, eat or interact with others. Personal identity doesn't disappear with awakening, it is just seen through. So, it is not the case that Arahants have no sense of 'I'. It is just that they have no sense of 'I am'.'

And from there the topic changed into illusion vs taking things as real and emptiness in general.

pegembara
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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby pegembara » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:38 pm

And if the next question is where is consciousness located ? It is in the mind. Where is the mind located ? In the brain.


Where in the brain is the mind or consciousness located?

"Consciousness, monks, is classified simply by the requisite condition in dependence on which it arises. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the eye & forms is classified simply as eye-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the ear & sounds is classified simply as ear-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the nose & aromas is classified simply as nose-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the tongue & flavors is classified simply as tongue-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the body & tactile sensations is classified simply as body-consciousness. Consciousness that arises in dependence on the intellect & ideas is classified simply as intellect-consciousness.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


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And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 11, 2013 2:50 pm

Where in the brain is the mind or consciousness located?



Why does this matter? Will knowing the answer stop dukkha? :shrug:
“The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences. When love and hate are both absent, everything becomes clear and undisguised." Verses on the Faith Mind, Sengcan

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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:05 pm

It might be good to remember that the kind of self that you have is just the same as the kind of self that an Arahant has.
chownah

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reflection
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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 11, 2013 3:51 pm

SarathW wrote:Hi Reflection
I am sure you know that even the highest level of meditation will not eliminate the “I” thought!

I think you mean eliminate as in gone forever. I think it does, actually. I think the Buddha only used the word "I" when conceptualizing things to explain others, but in his internal thought patterns there was no place for it.

But less deep meditation can already extinguish it for a while, because to get in those meditation states you have to let go of the imagined "I" and this imagination doesn't come back immediately. Conceit (thinking in terms of "I") is not a thing you either have or don't have, it is something that comes up, just like sensual desire or anger. For some this comes up all the time, for some less. But meditation certainly can make it come up less often. Just like right after one did metta meditation anger will not arise for a while, or only very minor anger. Also, after one lets go of the imagined "I" that is "doing", "being" or "watching", after meditation it will also not come up as easily, if the meditation itself was not practiced in terms of "I" am doing, being or watching.

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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:59 pm

chownah wrote:Many people think that in eliminating the sense of self there is a diminishing of knowledge when the opposite is actually the case.
chownah


Hi Chwnah
Ven. Thanissaro has given something similar to your explanation.
==========================
Even after attaining release, the Arahant continues to practice meditation, although now that the effluents are ended, the concentration is not needed to put them to an end. MN 107 mentions that Arahants practice concentration both for the sake of a pleasant abiding in the here and now, and for mindfulness and alertness. A number of passages in the Canon mention the Buddha and his Arahant disciples exercising their supranormal powers, which shows that they were practicing concentration for the sake of attaining knowledge and vision as well, to use in instructing those around them. The description of the Buddha's passing away tells that he entered total Unbinding after exercising his mastery in the full range of jhanic attainments. Thus the practice of concentration is useful all the way to the point where one gains total release from the round of death and rebirth.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... part3.html

===========================
What I gather from above is that Arahant will continue to live as per their five aggregate just before realising the enlightenment.
However they will not have any mental, bodily or verbal fabrications.

pegembara
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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby pegembara » Fri Jul 12, 2013 5:09 am

clw_uk wrote:
Where in the brain is the mind or consciousness located?



Why does this matter? Will knowing the answer stop dukkha? :shrug:


It might.
When one knows that consciousness is dependently originated, that there is no permanent consciousness anywhere. That means there is only suffering arising and passing but no one who is actually suffering. This makes all the difference in letting go.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby binocular » Sun Jul 14, 2013 1:36 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Where in the brain is the mind or consciousness located?

Why does this matter? Will knowing the answer stop dukkha?

The whole of Western mainstream science (with which many Buddhists seek to comply) is placing their hopes on investigating precisely such things.

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Re: How did Buddha live without thinking I, me and myself?

Postby SarathW » Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:23 am

I found an answer to my OP question is beautifully explained in the following passge.

============
'He discerns that "Whatever disturbances that would exist based on the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance, are not present. And there is only this modicum of disturbance: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition." He discerns that "This mode of perception is empty of the effluent of sensuality... the effluent of becoming... the effluent of ignorance. And there is just this non-emptiness: that connected with the six sensory spheres, dependent on this very body with life as its condition." Thus he regards it as empty of whatever is not there. Whatever remains, he discerns as present: "There is this." And so this, his entry into emptiness, accords with actuality, is undistorted in meaning, pure —
superior & unsurpassed.'

— MN 121
===============
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-3.html


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