akaliko -timeless

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akaliko -timeless

Postby pilgrim » Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:56 am

Dhamma is described as "akaliko" which is translated as timeless but i've read 2 different meanings
1. immediatly effective
2. true in all three times (past, present and future)

Which is correct?
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby BlackBird » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:05 am

pilgrim wrote:Dhamma is described as "akaliko" which is translated as timeless but i've read 2 different meanings
1. immediatly effective
2. true in all three times (past, present and future)

Which is correct?


Personally I would say neither - and with gusto.

A - negative prefix
kalika - time

akalika - not-time, not-to-do-with-time, not concerned with time.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby cooran » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:08 am

Hello pilgrim,

Hope this helps:

From Great Virtues of the Dhamma by Ven. K. Sri Dhammananda

(3) Akaliko
Akaliko implied that the beneficial effects to be derived from the practice of the Dhamma would not be delayed. The Dhamma, despite the length of time that has elapsed since its pronouncement, remains ever fresh and unchallenged. It runs parallel even with the latest scientific thought. If there is truth, that truth can never become old. Dhamma is that Truth which cannot grow old with age since it depicts the reality underlying all phenomenal existence in Samsara. Briefly, the Dhamma states that the world is unsatisfactory and that greed happens to be the inevitable cause of this state of affairs. The remedy for this unsatisfactoriness is the eradication of greed to be achieved through the practice of eight skilful factors known as the noble Eightfold Path.
http://www.purifymind.com/Introduction.htm

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Mar 06, 2011 8:37 am

BlackBird wrote:
pilgrim wrote:Dhamma is described as "akaliko" which is translated as timeless but i've read 2 different meanings
1. immediatly effective
2. true in all three times (past, present and future)

Which is correct?


Personally I would say neither - and with gusto.

A - negative prefix
kalika - time

akalika - not-time, not-to-do-with-time, not concerned with time.
Pali idiom very often uses negative constructions to say something positive
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby plwk » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:04 am

Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby pilgrim » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:33 pm

plwk wrote:Without delay

Thanks.. that settles it
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby kirk5a » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:29 pm

Ever heard a really big bell? It doesn't just have a single tone actually. It resonates on several levels.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby PeterB » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:38 pm

BlackBird wrote:
pilgrim wrote:Dhamma is described as "akaliko" which is translated as timeless but i've read 2 different meanings
1. immediatly effective
2. true in all three times (past, present and future)

Which is correct?


Personally I would say neither - and with gusto.

A - negative prefix
kalika - time

akalika - not-time, not-to-do-with-time, not concerned with time.

:namaste: Correct
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby PeterB » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:39 pm

plwk wrote:Without delay



Not incorrect but conventional.
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby piotr » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:41 pm

I think we should also contemplate what the term ‘dhamma’ refers to in this context. This may sort out some puzzles.
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby Dmytro » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:38 am

pilgrim wrote:Dhamma is described as "akaliko" which is translated as timeless but i've read 2 different meanings
1. immediatly effective
2. true in all three times (past, present and future)

Which is correct?


From the Margaret Cone's dictionary:

akālika,
1. not dependent on time; not limited to a particular time; immediate, immediately effective;
2. not at a usual or expected time; unseasonable;
Critical Pali Dictionary:

a-kālika, mfn., 1. out of season, exceptional; Mil 114,7 (~aṁ kadācuppattikaṁ). —
2. immediate, present, at hand; Ja III 394,19'; in the formula:
sanditthiko, ~o, ehipassiko, etc., DN II 93,32 (Vism 216,16); AN I 156,28 (Mp), 227,13 (Mp); — Sn 567 (Pj) = MN ch. 92 (Ps), Sn 1137 (Nidd II, Nidd-a, Pj) (sandiṭṭhikaṁ ~aṁ); SN II 58,4 = IV 328,21 (dhammena ditthena viditena ~ena pattena pariyogāḷhena) (Spk).

http://pali.hum.ku.dk/cpd/search.html

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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby piotr » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:00 am

Hi,

BTW There's interesting article on this by Johannes Bronkhorst: http://my.unil.ch/serval/document/BIB_74F9A3157D8D.pdf

:reading:
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby gavesako » Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:31 pm

Something related in this article:

"The dhamma which is described as "sandiṭṭhika akālika ehipassika" is, I think, nibbāna itself, which contrary to, for example, Jain belief is attainable in this life not only after death. So I believe that akālika has nothing to do with workings of paṭiccasamuppāda but describes nature of Buddhist goal."

http://jayarava.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/timeless.html
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby Holdan » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:13 pm

gavesako wrote:So I believe that akālika has nothing to do with workings of paṭiccasamuppāda...

MN 38 seems to offer little, if no, support for this view of Jayarava. In MN 38, Buddha provides both extensive discourse & questioning of monks about paṭiccasamuppāda, which concludes:

Good, monks. You have been guided by me in this Dhamma which is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be realized by the observant for themselves. For it has been said, 'This Dhamma is to be seen here & now, timeless, inviting verification, pertinent, to be by the observant for themselves,' and it was in reference to this that it was said.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


To add:
Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees paṭiccasamuppāda sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees paṭiccasamuppāda."

MN 28
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:28 pm

pilgrim wrote:Dhamma is described as "akaliko" which is translated as timeless but i've read 2 different meanings
1. immediatly effective
2. true in all three times (past, present and future)

Which is correct?



Both?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby gavesako » Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:49 am

Compare:

Time Reborn by Lee Smolin – review

Time is real. An idea physicists regard as heresy is rescued by this American theorist

...In putting his case for it, Smolin says many things that are comprehensible and that, to me at least, seem both true and important. Among those things is the idea (that Smolin advances brilliantly and persuasively) that the reason physicists have come to reject the reality of time is that they have been bewitched by the beauty and success of the mathematical models they use into mistaking those models for reality. For timelessness, though not really a feature of our world, is a feature of mathematics. Two plus two equals four, but if we ask when or for how long the perplexing (though true) answer seems to be: "Well, always. It is an eternal truth. Time is irrelevant to it." And thus we seem to be driven to accepting the thought that some truths, at least, are eternal. And, if we can have timeless truths in mathematics, why not in physics? To think like this, Smolin claims, is to forget, or to deny, that the objects of mathematics – numbers, curves etc – do not exist, whereas physics concerns itself with what does exist, and, in reality, in the domain of things that do exist, time is inescapable. So, he insists: "Useful as mathematics has turned out to be, the postulation of timeless mathematical laws is never completely innocent, for it always carries a trace of the metaphysical fantasy of transcendence from our earthly world." He thus presents us with a choice: "Either the world is in essence mathematical or it lives in time." Some of the most interesting chapters in this book are those in which Smolin traces the history of what the philosopher Edmund Husserl called the "mathematisation of Nature".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2013/ju ... lin-review


While reading the article above on 'Time Reborn' it struck me as applying in a similar way to Ñanavira's idea of "akalika" (timeless) in his interpretation of PS. After all, his background was in mathematics and in particular logic, which he continued to read even as a monk and while writing Notes on Dhamma (see particularly Fundamental Structure). He admitted being "something of a logician" in the past as well as "a tidy-chart-maker". So it is not surprising that his interpretation of PS betrays this influence and gives it a certain slant, when he insists that it has nothing to do with time and treats the items of the PS formulation as if they were logical categories arranged in an algorithm. That is why it is a little bit hard to make practical use of his PS interpretation, unlike those of Buddhadasa or Thanissaro which show the arising of "states of becoming" based on particular intentional acts during the course of our life.


Quote from Ñanavira:

8. If paticcasamuppāda is sanditthika and akālika then it is clear that it can have nothing to do with kamma and kammavipāka—at least in their usual sense of ethical action and its eventual retribution (see KAMMA) --; for the ripening of kamma as vipāka takes time—vipāka always follows kamma after an interval and is never simultaneous with it.

Notes on Dhamma :: A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPÁDA
http://nanavira.org/index.php/notes-on- ... asamuppada

...paticcasamuppāda has nothing to do with temporal succession (cause-and-effect). Precedence in paticcasamuppāda is structural, not temporal: paticcasamuppāda is not the description of a process. For as long as paticcasamuppāda is thought to involve temporal succession (as it is, notably, in the traditional 'three-life' interpretation), so long is it liable to be regarded as some kind of hypothesis (that there is re-birth and that it is caused by avijjā) to be verified (or not) in the course of time...
Any interpretation of paticcasamuppāda that involves time is an attempt to resolve the present problem by referring to past or future, and is therefore necessarily mistaken. The argument that both past and future exist in the present (which, in a certain sense, is correct) does not lead to the resolution of the problem.

Notes on Dhamma :: PATICCASAMUPPÁDA
http://nanavira.org/index.php/notes-on- ... asamuppada



Quote from Bhikkhu Bodhi's Critique:

"I have presented you, monks, with this Dhamma that is visible (sandi.t.thika), immediate (akaalika), inviting one to come and see, accessible, to be personally realized by the wise."
Ven. ~Naa.naviira supposes that "this Dhamma" refers to pa.ticca-samuppaada, and that the description of it as akaalika must mean that the entire formula defines a non-temporal configuration of factors. ...
If we consider the word akaalika as employed here, the meaning cannot be "non-temporal" in the sense either that the items conjoined by the conditioning relationship occur simultaneously or that they altogether transcend temporal differentiation. For the same sutta defines birth and death with the stock formulas -- 'birth' as birth into any of the orders of beings, etc., 'death' as the passing away from any of the orders of beings, etc. (see #7 above). Surely these events, birth and death, cannot be either simultaneous or extra-temporal. But the word akaalika is here set in correlation with a series of words signifying knowledge, and this gives us the key to its meaning. Taken in context, the word qualifies, not the factors such as birth and death themselves, but the principle (dhamma) that is seen and understood. The point made by calling the principle akaalika is that this principle is known and seen immediately, that is, that the conditional relationship between any two terms is known directly with perceptual certainty. Such immediate knowledge is contrasted with knowledge of the consequence, or inferential knowledge (anvaye ~naa.na), by which the disciple does not grasp a principle by immediate insight but by reflection on what the principle entails. ...
At this point the Buddha says: "I have presented you, monks, with this Dhamma that is visible, immediate..." Each of the terms in this stock formula conveys, from a slightly different angle, the same essential point: that the Dhamma is something that can be seen (sandi.t.thiko); that it is to be known immediately (akaaliko); that it calls out for personal verification (ehipassiko); that it is accessible (opanayiko); that it is to be personally realized by the wise (paccatta.m veditabbo vi~n~nuuhi). The terms all highlight, not the intrinsic nature of the Dhamma, but its relation to human knowledge and understanding. They are all epistemological in import, not ontological; they are concerned with how the Dhamma is to be known, not with the temporal status of the known.
Again, the conclusion is established: The Dhamma (inclusive of pa.ticca-samuppaada) is akaalika because it is to be known immediately by direct inspection, not by inference or by faith in the word of another. Thus, although birth and death may be separated by 70 or 80 years, one ascertains immediately that death occurs in dependence on birth and cannot occur if there is no birth. Similarly, although the ignorance and sa"nkhaaraa that bring about the descent of consciousness into the womb are separated from consciousness by a gap of lifetimes, one ascertains immediately that the descent of consciousness into the womb has come about through ignorance and sa"nkhaaraa. And again, although future becoming, birth, and aging and death are separated from present craving and clinging by a gap of lifetimes, one ascertains immediately that if craving and clinging persist until the end of the lifespan, they will bring about reconception, and hence engender a future cycle of becoming. It is in this sense that the Buddha declares pa.ticca-samuppaada to be sandi.t.thika, akaalika -- "directly visible, immediate" -- not in the sense that the terms of the formula have nothing to do with time or temporal succession.

http://www.buddhismwithoutboundaries.co ... khu-rebuts
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Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby nyanasuci » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:11 am

If we want to understand pañca(upādāna)khandhā we need to recognize it in every experience. But since we do experience time and have sense of time, I cannot see why the Dhamma, i.e. the full understanding of it, should be as the second after time. Therefore Dhamma is akalika, t.i. dhammas, which are explained by the Buddha, are the factors of the structure of our experience. And since p.s. is also part of experience, p.s. becomes akalika too.

A bit about it can be found also at http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2013/03/ ... n-an-1-51/
and http://pathpress.wordpress.com/2010/12/ ... h-applies/
and of course this topic is explained in Ven. Nanavira's writings but I am sure you know where to look at.

Anyway, as usual, it will be confirmed by all the same people and rejected by the other. But my main point is here: don't take it as a easy matter.
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The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 12, 2013 3:48 am

On the Meaning of Sanditthika and Akalika

Some modern writers have suggested that the effect must arise simultaneously with its cause, or arise just one moment after, for this to qualify as a Dhamma which can be 'seen here and now' and be 'immediate'. They argue that since the Dhamma is sanditthika and akalika, and Dependent Origination is one of the central features of the Dhamma, therefore Dependent Origination must be sanditthika and akalika. But does 'sanditthika' mean 'seen here and now'? Does 'akalika' mean 'immediate'? As I will now show, these translations can be misleading.

The passage in the suttas which gives the clearest indication of the meaning of 'sanditthika' is in the Mahadukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN 13). In this sutta, the dangers of sensual pleasures are described by seven examples of consequences to be experienced in this life, and all seven are described as 'sanditthika'. This is in contrast to the consequence of sensual pleasures described in the sutta's next paragraph that are to be experienced after death and are called samparayika. Clearly, sanditthika and samparayika are antonyms (words with opposite meanings). In this context, sanditthika must mean 'visible in this life'. Although some Pali words carry slightly different meanings in different contexts, this is rare and it seems reasonable to assume that sanditthika mans 'visible in this life' in all other contexts as well.

Sanditthika and kalika (the opposite of akalika) are used together in a revealing phrase which occurs three times in the suttas (SN 1, 20; SN 4, 21; and MN 70). The phrase, with minor variations in each sutta is as follows:

I don't run after what is kalika, having abandoned what is sanditthika.
I run after what is sanditthika, having abandoned what is kalika.

Naham sanditthikam hitva, kalikam anudhavami.
Kalikam hitva, sanditthikam anudhavami.

In these three contexts, sanditthika and kalika are clearly direct opposites, antonyms again. Thus it is reasonable to assume that the opposite of kalika, akalika, must be synonymous with sanditthika. That is, sanditthika and akalika have essentially the same meaning. They both refer to that which is 'visible in this life'.
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nation.htm




In the usual summary of the Dhamma "sanditthiko akaliko etc." most if not all other descriptions are pointing to a practical approach to the Dhamma, and not direct aspects of the Dhamma itself. It speaks about "inviting to investigation", "to be seen" etc. So I also think akaliko must have a sense of something practical. The translations "immediately effective" or "timeless" don't really portray that I think.
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby nyanasuci » Fri Jul 12, 2013 7:11 pm

reflection wrote:In the usual summary of the Dhamma "sanditthiko akaliko etc." most if not all other descriptions are pointing to a practical approach to the Dhamma, and not direct aspects of the Dhamma itself. It speaks about "inviting to investigation", "to be seen" etc. So I also think akaliko must have a sense of something practical. The translations "immediately effective" or "timeless" don't really portray that I think.

Akalika as "not-time" is practical. You have to work on it. Again, it is common tendency to make things simple and easy to grasp, but the truth is not like that. Good luck in watching your mind.
Bhikkhu Hiriko - Ñāṇasuci

The experts do not say that one is a sage in this world because of view, or learning, or knowledge, Nanda.
I call them sages who wander without association, without affliction, without desire.

The Buddha, Sn.V.8.2 (1078)


http://pathpress.org | http://nanavira.org | http://ajahnchah.org
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Re: akaliko -timeless

Postby pulga » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:38 pm

‘‘Pubbeva me, bhikkhave, sambodhā anabhisambuddhassa bodhisattasseva sato etadahosi – ‘yeme pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra me cittaṃ bahulaṃ gacchamānaṃ gaccheyya paccuppannesu vā appaṃ vā anāgatesu’. Tassa mayhaṃ, bhikkhave, etadahosi – ‘yeme pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra me attarūpena appamādo sati cetaso ārakkho karaṇīyo’. Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo cittaṃ bahulaṃ gacchamānaṃ gaccheyya paccuppannesu vā appaṃ vā anāgatesu. Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, tumhākampi ye te pañca kāmaguṇā cetaso samphuṭṭhapubbā atītā niruddhā vipariṇatā, tatra vo attarūpehi appamādo sati cetaso ārakkho karaṇīyo. Tasmātiha, bhikkhave, se āyatane veditabbe yattha cakkhu ca nirujjhati, rūpasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe…pe… yattha jivhā ca nirujjhati, rasasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe…pe… yattha mano ca nirujjhati, dhammasaññā ca nirujjhati, se āyatane veditabbe’’ti. Idaṃ vatvā bhagavā uṭṭhāyāsanā vihāraṃ pāvisi. (Kāmaguṇasuttaṃ)

Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still only an unenlightened bodhisatta it occurred to me: 'My thought may often go to those five strands of sensuality that it has formerly touched, but that are (now) past, ceased, and changed, or to those that are present, or to those just to the future.' It occurred to me: 'Diligence and mindfulness, the guarding of the mind (i.e. thought), need be established for my own sake.'

The same is the case for you as well, bhikkhus. (paraphrase)

Therefore that base (or level) should be known where the eye ceases and perception of form ceases... where the tongue ceases and perception of taste ceases, where the mind ceases and perception of ideas* ceases.

Having said this the Blessed One rose from his seat and entered his dwelling.


This sutta I believe captures much of what Ven. Ñanavira is trying to explain in his Notes. "O precedes x first, then x precedes o: our awareness -- which is always dependent on námarupa at any particular level of experience – is itself timeless, outside of the realm of the ecstaces of time, transcendent yet contingent upon the bodily senses that rise and fall with their corresponding perceptions in the duality of the salayatana. Mindfulness manifests this contingency, makes it explicit – as does Fundamental Structure.

*Ideas are incarnate, be they real or imaginary.
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