Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby cooran » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:00 pm

Hello AJatashatru,

It would probably be worthwhile if, when you feel people are misinformed, rather than expressing dosa, that you posted links to support your view so they could read, be informed and understand what the situation is.

With metta,
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:18 pm

Ajatashatru wrote:Seeing some of the posts of these members makes me wonder what fantasy world you guys are living in?


I agree with what you say. I hope Burma will not become like 12th century India when a certain strong religion started to destroy Buddhism there.
Unfortunately in this cruel world, "might makes it right" and only the strongest, cruelest, most cunning survive. I would not be surprised if the most aggressive religion wins in the end. Why not, if they destroy the opposition and are the only one left standing?

Unfortunately I have witnessed extreme unfairness where one concedes something, smelling weakness they grab it, keep demanding and grabbing more, and then make the victim look like bad and evil person even though it was they who ripped someone off and not being satisfied with only that, accused the victim.

cooran wrote:It would probably be worthwhile if, when you feel people are misinformed, rather than expressing dosa, that you posted links to support your view so they could read, be informed and understand what the situation is.


One could start with:

By the time the Muslims began conquering northern India in the 12th century under the Ghurids, the number of monasteries had severely declined.[39][42] Buddhism, which once had spread across the face of India, was a vital force confined to an ever-shrinking number of monasteries in the areas of its origins
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... _invasions


Or with destruction of Buddhist statues in Afghanistan in March 2001.
On 6 March 2001 The Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to Allah that we have destroyed them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhas_of_Bamiyan


Is this what Buddhists want?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby cooran » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:58 pm

Hello Alex,

What did the Buddha teach on being violent?

I haven't found anywhere where he encouraged violence in speech, thought or word.

But I would welcome correction.

With metta,
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:00 pm

cooran wrote:What did the Buddha teach on being violent?


If someone wants to kill you, are you going to willingly allow them to do so, thus even in this case be implicit in allowing violence to occur?

If someone wants to destroy Dhamma, is protection of the aggressors more important than protection of Dhamma? Maybe I should quit this sort of Buddhism which will not survive in the reality of 21st century world.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Ajatashatru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:08 pm

"The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves. Summarizing the evidence relating to the slaughter of the Buddhist Monks perpetrated by the Musalman General in the course of his invasion of Bihar in 1197 AD, Mr. Vincent Smith says, "....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the 'shaven headed Brahmans', that is to say the Buddhist monks, was so thoroughly completed, that when the victor sought for someone capable of explaining the contents of the books in the libraries of the monasteries, not a living man could be found who was able to read them. 'It was discovered,' we are told, 'that the whole of that fortress and city was a college, and in the Hindi tongue they call a college Bihar.' "Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood, Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of the Buddha in India...."


quote by Dr. Ambedkar


"There can be no doubt that the fall of Buddhism in India was due to the invasions of the Musalmans." Islam came out as the enemy of the 'But'. The word 'But' as everybody knows, is the Arabic word and means an idol. Thus the origin of the word indicates that in the Moslem mind idol worship had come to be identified with the Religion of the Buddha. To the Muslims, they were one and the same thing. The mission to break the idols thus became the mission to destroy Buddhism. Islam destroyed Buddhism not only in India but whatever it went. Before Islam came into being Buddhism was the religion of Bactria, Parthia, Afghanistan, Gandhar, and Chinese Turkestan, as it was of the whole of Asia..."


quote by Hindu nationalist historian Sitaram Goel

http://thedevil.com/The_Hindu_Holocaust ... 0Buddhists
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Ajatashatru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:14 pm

Tens of thousands of rioters left a trail of destruction in southeastern Bangladesh as they torched Buddhist temples and homes near the town of Ramu. The violence was sparked by a photo posted on Facebook that allegedly insulted Islam.

A 25,000-strong mob set fire to at least five temples and dozens of homes throughout the town and surrounding villages after seeing the picture, which they claimed was posted by Uttam Barua, a local Buddhist man, AFP reported.

The group chanted “God is Great” while setting fire to the centuries-old temples.

"I have seen 11 wooden temples, two of them 300 years old, torched by the mob. They looted precious items and Buddha statues from the temples. Shops owned by Buddhists were also looted," local journalist Sunil Barua said.

Security forces were deployed to contain the uprising: "At least 100 houses were damaged. We called in army and border guards to quell the violence," district administrator Joinul Bari said.

No casualties were reported, and authorities did not confirm whether police arrested any of the rioters.

Buddhist monks protested against the attacks on Sunday, forming a human chain in the country’s capital of Dhaka.

Bangladeshi Home Minister Mohiuddin Khan Alamgir said the attacks were preplanned, and vowed to bring the perpetrators to justice.

"The attack was conducted in a coordinated manner. Temples and houses were set on fire using patrol and gun powder. It would have been impossible if the attacks were not planned," he told Bangladesh’s Bdnews24.

The government will provide financial assistance for reconstruction of the damaged houses and temple, Alamgir said.

Before launching their attacks, Muslims publicly rallied against the picture and called for Barua's arrest. However, several Facebook users said that Barua did not post the photo, and that he was linked to the photo after group called 'Insult Allah' tagged his name on the image.
http://rt.com/news/buddhist-temples-tor ... adesh-342/
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:19 pm

These are the people some want to protect:
This is what they have been doing with them:
Activities of ” Rohingyas” (Bangladeshi ) back in Bangladesh: Slow Genocide of non-Muslims through almost yearly massacre and terrorization.
Since 1980 there have been 13 major instances of massacre of the Jummas by the Bangladeshi settlers .These are:
1980 Massacre – gunned down 300 Jummas.
1981 Massacre- murdered hundreds of Jummas.
1981 Massacre -invaded the Jumma villages of Feni valley and murdered hundreds of Jummas.
1983 Massacre – murdered 800 Jummas.
1984 Massacre – At least 400 Jummas were killed. Many women were gang raped and later shot dead.
1986 Massacre – hundreds of Jummas (actual number not known) were killed and injured, 80,000 Jummas fled across the border to India.
May 1986 Massacre – gunned down at least 70 Jumma civilians
May 1986 -intercepted 200 Jummas while fleeing across the border to India and opened fired on them.
1988 Massacre – killed hundreds of Jumma civilians and gang raped Jumma women.
1989 Massacre – murdered 40 Jummas, dead bodies never recovered.
1992 Massacre- murdered another 30 Jummas.
April 1992 Massacre – 400 Jummas killed
1993 Massacre- about 100 Jummas killed
2010- at least 100 houses were burnt down , at least eight people from the Chakmas were shot dead while dozens were injured
http://www.irrawaddy.org/archives/13085#comment-23029
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Ajatashatru » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:27 pm

I hope everyone here is aware of the 1971 Bangladeshi genocide. Granted most of the victims (80%) were Hindus not Buddhists, it still shows us the destructive power of political Islam. Reliable estimates calculated recently put the Bangladesh death toll to 1.5 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby cooran » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:30 pm

Hello Alex, Ajatashatru, all,

Thanks for the articles.

But what did the Buddha teach on being violent? Please give links to particular Suttas.

With metta,
Chris
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Holdan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:55 pm

Ajatashatru wrote:Let me ask you guys something. Does anyone condemn the bombing of Germany in World War 2?

The unnecessary bombings of German cities, similar to the unnecessary bombings of Hiroshimi and Nagasaki, have been condemned by many secular Westerners.

Ajatashatru wrote:Like it or not, the civilized world (especially us belonging to Dharma traditions) are in a war with pan-Islam.

Us, belonging to the Buddha-Dhamma traditions, are certainly not at war with 'pan-Islam'. Islam has been devoid of power for many centuries now. Some of the Islam based movements, particularly Taliban and speculatively Al Queda, were originally American foreign policy creations. The current Islamic movement is based on revenge for Western acts against Muslim people (eg. Palestine) & based in the alienation of many Muslims living in Europe who were original guest workers (cheap labour). 'Pan-Islam' has no power & is no threat to any military of Western nations.



Ajatashatru wrote:There will be innocent blood spilled in a war. We have to deal with it and stop pointing fingers while roosting in our ivory towers.

'Dharma traditions' is certainly a generic term covering the Indian religions but your views seem to not be Buddhist views.

Ajatashatru wrote:The Musalman invaders sacked the Buddhist Universities of Nalanda, Vikramshila, Jagaddala, Odantapuri to name only a few. They raised to the ground Buddhist monasteries with which the country was studded. The monks fled away in thousands to Nepal, Tibet and other places outside India. A very large number were killed outright by the Muslim commanders. How the Buddhist priesthood perished by the sword of the Muslim invaders has been recorded by the Muslim historians themselves. Summarizing the evidence relating to the slaughter of the Buddhist Monks perpetrated by the Musalman General in the course of his invasion of Bihar in 1197 AD, Mr. Vincent Smith says, "....Great quantities of plunder were obtained, and the slaughter of the 'shaven headed Brahmans', that is to say the Buddhist monks, was so thoroughly completed, that when the victor sought for someone capable of explaining the contents of the books in the libraries of the monasteries, not a living man could be found who was able to read them. 'It was discovered,' we are told, 'that the whole of that fortress and city was a college, and in the Hindi tongue they call a college Bihar.' "Such was the slaughter of the Buddhist priesthood perpetrated by the Islamic invaders. The axe was struck at the very root. For by killing the Buddhist priesthood, Islam killed Buddhism. This was the greatest disaster that befell the religion of the Buddha in India...."

Yes. This occurred. According to history. The very nature of Buddhism allowed it to occur. It cannot be otherwise.

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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Ajatashatru » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:06 am

@Holdan

What you are advocating is fatalism. That is not true Buddhism but a gross perversion.

Also what Palestinian atrocities? Why don't the Muslims cry about the tens of thousands of fellow black Muslims killed by Arab Muslims in Darfur, why not the daily killings of Shias in Pakistan, of thousands in Syria. The Tibetans have suffered 1.2 million dead and you don't see them blowing up school buses full of children. The current Islamist movement is deeply ingrained in traditional Islam which divides into Darul-al-Harb (house of war) and Darul-al-Islam (house of islam). It is the DUTY of every Muslim to ensure that the whole world is Darul-al-Islam. The fact of the matter is, Muslims have a deeply ingrained victim mentality that will seize upon the weakness of any party. Also no other nationality has the "Ummah" concept, which is a very potent force in Islam.

Glad that you mentioned Europe. Do you know that the Muslims are aggressively pushing their dietary laws in public places, do you know its unsafe for Jews to travel in many major European cities due to religion of peace followers, do you know all the rapes in Scandinavian countries are done by Muslim immigrants, do you know London is a hotbed for Islamist terror? Europe is a bomb waiting to go off.

And yes, however much you want to distance yourself from Hindu Dharma, let it be known that it is rightfully regarded as the mother religion by many Indian Buddhists in Sikkim, Arunachal Pradesh, and Ladakh.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:28 am

cooran wrote:Hello Alex, Ajatashatru, all,

Thanks for the articles.

But what did the Buddha teach on being violent? Please give links to particular Suttas.

With metta,
Chris


Are you saying that protection of aggressors is more valuable than protection of Buddhism?


Is Bhikkhu allowed to defend oneself?

74. Should any bhikkhu, angered and displeased, give a blow to (another) bhikkhu, it is to be confessed.

The factors for the full offense here are three.

* 1) Object: another bhikkhu.
* 2) Effort: One gives him a blow
* 3) Intention: out of anger.

Non-offenses. According to the Vibhaṅga, there is no offense for a bhikkhu who, trapped in a difficult situation, gives a blow "desiring freedom." The Commentary's discussion of this point shows that it includes what we at present would call self-defense; and the K/Commentary's analysis of the factors of the offense here shows that even if anger or displeasure arises in one's mind in cases like this, there is no penalty.

Summary: Giving a blow to another bhikkhu when impelled by anger — except in self-defense — is a pācittiya offense.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=7537#p119835
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:40 am

Holdan wrote:Us, belonging to the Buddha-Dhamma traditions, are certainly not at war with 'pan-Islam'.


But they are enemies of anyone who doesn't believe in their faith.

Holdan wrote: Islam has been devoid of power for many centuries now.


If they had power, then we would all be forced to accept their God and there may not have been any Buddhist monks left.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby cooran » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:46 am

Hello all,

Theravada attitudes to Violence - Journal of Buddhist Ethics by Dr. Mahinda Deegalle
http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... egalle.pdf

With metta,
Chris
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Alex123 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:48 am

cooran wrote:Hello all,

Theravada attitudes to Violence - Journal of Buddhist Ethics by Dr. Mahinda Deegalle
http://blogs.dickinson.edu/buddhistethi ... egalle.pdf

With metta,
Chris



Is self-defense for the benefit of future generations considered bad? Do we give the aggressors more right than the victims?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Ajatashatru » Sat Jul 13, 2013 12:49 am

Are there any non-Western Buddhists that would like to comment on this?
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby cooran » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:24 am

Hello all,

Many Sutta quotations on non-violence here:

Non-violence - A Study Guide by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... lence.html

With metta,
Chris
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby dagon » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:09 am

Greetings and Metta to all,

My apologies to any that I may offend if I am not skillful in what I say; but seriously I read this and similar threads and I see little knowledge, understanding or metta.
All events occur in a context and not understanding that context will lead to misconceptions, there is almost no understanding of Myanmar, the peoples and their history that lead up to the repulsive events in Burma and have involved those wearing saffron !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o ... se_history
What does that prove – well for a start that Buddha was right about impermanence. Secondly, that Myanmar is a lot more complicated than rice paddies, pagodas and peaceful coexistence even within the Buddhist communities.
http://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/v ... chin-state
http://endgenocide.org/conflict-areas/burma/
http://www.loonwatch.com/2013/03/buddhi ... -in-burma/
to quote from the article a Muslim said “We don’t feel safe and we have now moved inside a monastery,”
This article I found most interesting when I reflected on what it has to say and the teachings of Buddha. http://blogs.tribune.com.pk/story/12825 ... t-fingers/
With Metta
paul
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Raksha » Sat Jul 13, 2013 2:32 am

LonesomeYogurt wrote:You are far "better off" being savagely murdered with a compassionate mind than surviving longer with a vicious one.

If necessary, I would kill to defend myself and my family, as well as innocents such as small children, monks and nuns. Afterwards I would sponsor a temple to say prayers for the deceased and also release captive fish and birds into the wild.
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Re: Genocide in Burma: Monks and Perpetuation of Violence

Postby Holdan » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:20 am

Ajatashatru wrote:@Holdan

What you are advocating is fatalism. That is not true Buddhism but a gross perversion.

My view can be supported by reference to the original teachings of Buddha. The Moderator has requested of you to give links to particular Suttas to support your view. The onus falls upon you to support your statement that your view is true Buddhism & not a gross perversion.

Ajatashatru wrote:Glad that you mentioned Europe.

The Europeans are subject to their karma (volitional actions). The Europeans are able to volitionally choose to make new laws if they have problems. The state of affairs in Europe does not require resorting to violence if there are problems to be solved. The Europeans still govern their nations.

Ajatashatru wrote:And yes, however much you want to distance yourself from Hindu Dharma...

To my knowledge, there are no teachings of Buddha similar to those Krishna gave to Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita.

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