Dhamma Ending Age

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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:31 pm

Will wrote:Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.



Isnt it better translated as "skilful view"

That is, which is more skiful at leading to letting go?
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby oceanfloor » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:08 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:If getting rid of superstitious trappings you don't believe in, while embracing a Buddhist practice you feel is helpful and beneficial to yourself and others, is a sign of the dhamma ending age, then please let the dhamma end today. :tongue:

We get terribly hung up on definitions and doctrinal delineations on forums such as these. But Buddhism is spreading, is thriving, and it's definitely a force for good. If the interest of its followers is more about achieving happiness and doing good things, like safeguarding the environment, or helping people in difficult circumstances, fighting inequality or exploitation etc, than in "keeping the faith pure", then that is only a good thing.

The Dhamma is not ended yet. It is degrading until no one knows the true Dhamma.
Actual signs of Dhamma ending age:
- lesser and lesser people refer to sutta
- more and more people cannot differentiate between true Dhamma and counterfeit Dhamma
- counterfeit Dhamma gains more popularity, such as in the west
- abbot of Buddhist temple watches NBA playoff in his room

It is indeed Dhamma ending age. Learn diligently while there is time.

:anjali:
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 3:40 am

clw_uk wrote:
Will wrote:Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.



Isnt it better translated as "skilful view"

That is, which is more skiful at leading to letting go?

I think that's the point that Will is making. If some interpretations are more or less effective/valid/wrong/skilful than others then it is actutally important to identify which is which.

I don't think anyone here woud disagree that if someone was under the misapperehension that it is possible to effectively practice while killing, stealing, etc, etc, we'd be doing them a favour by telling them (politely) that they were deluded. We wouldn't be saying: "Oh, you need to be kind to him, and let him think whatever he wants to...".

We have less consensus on whether some modern developments ("Dhamma Lite" if you like) are actually ineffective but it's obviously a question worth exploring.

:anjali:
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Aloka » Sat Jul 13, 2013 6:09 am

Regarding degeneration of the Dhamma:

The first time I read this sutta about 3 or 4 years ago, tears began streaming down my cheeks, because at that time, I felt that it had already started happening a long time ago, especially this part: "But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric...."


SN 20.7 Ani Sutta: The Peg

Staying at Savatthi. "Monks, there once was a time when the Dasarahas had a large drum called 'Summoner.' Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasarahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner's original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained.

"In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

"In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — will come about.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata — deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness — are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn20/sn20.007.than.html



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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Arjan Dirkse » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:31 am

mikenz66 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Will wrote:Whether 'wrong View Dhamma' or 'counterfeit Dhamma' or Dhamma lite - it is all rooted in Wrong View. And as fundamentalist as it may appear, there is only 'one valid interpretation' - that of Buddha.

See this old thread on Wrong View: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16691

He also said in A 1 (sutta 318) that 'There is nothing worse than wrong view'.



Isnt it better translated as "skilful view"

That is, which is more skiful at leading to letting go?

I think that's the point that Will is making. If some interpretations are more or less effective/valid/wrong/skilful than others then it is actutally important to identify which is which.

I don't think anyone here woud disagree that if someone was under the misapperehension that it is possible to effectively practice while killing, stealing, etc, etc, we'd be doing them a favour by telling them (politely) that they were deluded. We wouldn't be saying: "Oh, you need to be kind to him, and let him think whatever he wants to...".

We have less consensus on whether some modern developments ("Dhamma Lite" if you like) are actually ineffective but it's obviously a question worth exploring.

:anjali:
Mike


True...but some tact is called for. When everybody just starts quoting scripture to prove that everyone else is wrong, you can't really have a fruitful discussion anymore.

Pointing out wrong view is great in a teacher - student relation, or for an individual to apply to him or herself. When people of different convictions start using it to discredit alternative viewpoints, that is just unhelpful and unpleasant.

As to the whole "dhamma lite" thing - I have no doubt it is just the same as has always been the case. Right after the Buddha died, different groups started popping up all over the place. Sthaviravadins, Mahasamghika, Dharmaguptakas, Sarvastivadins, Sautantrika, and then of course all the widely different Mahayana schools. I bet the "wrong view" accusation has been used a lot of times in heated debates even back then, and the "dhamma ending age" argument likewise..."Your beliefs are different than mine, therefore the dhamma ending age is here!"
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Aloka » Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:36 am

Arjan Dirkse wrote:

Pointing out wrong view is great in a teacher - student relation, or for an individual to apply to him or herself. When people of different convictions start using it to discredit alternative viewpoints, that is just unhelpful and unpleasant.

As to the whole "dhamma lite" thing - I have no doubt it is just the same as has always been the case. Right after the Buddha died, different groups started popping up all over the place. Sthaviravadins, Mahasamghika, Dharmaguptakas, Sarvastivadins, Sautantrika, and then of course all the widely different Mahayana schools. I bet the "wrong view" accusation has been used a lot of times in heated debates even back then, and the "dhamma ending age" argument likewise..."Your beliefs are different than mine, therefore the dhamma ending age is here!"



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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Digity » Sat Jul 13, 2013 1:02 pm

The end of the Dhamma is ultimately in our hands. The teachings are kept alive through us so ultimately if the Dhamma comes to an end it will be through our own lack of dedication to the true teachings. If you want to keep the Dhamma alive then keep up with the practice and further develop your wisdom.
Samsara sucks.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Jul 13, 2013 8:41 pm

Arjan Dirkse wrote:True...but some tact is called for. When everybody just starts quoting scripture to prove that everyone else is wrong, you can't really have a fruitful discussion anymore.

Pointing out wrong view is great in a teacher - student relation, or for an individual to apply to him or herself. When people of different convictions start using it to discredit alternative viewpoints, that is just unhelpful and unpleasant.

I certainly agree with that. However, as I said, not every point of view is necessarily useful. It does seem to me that some of the modern secular/Dhamma Lite/etc approaches risk losing important aspects of Dhamma. Putting some aspects aside "for now" is quite different from arguing that they have no significance. And that is what one sometimes sees: wholesale dismissal of some aspects of the Dhamma with pejoratives such as "cultural baggage".

:anjali:
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby Kusala » Mon Jul 15, 2013 9:23 am

Morphing Monasteries: Commercial Buddhism in Thailand

Image

Homage to the Buddha
Thus indeed, is that Blessed One: He is the Holy One, fully enlightened, endowed with clear vision and virtuous conduct, sublime, the Knower of the worlds, the incomparable leader of men to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and blessed.

Homage to the Teachings
The Dhamma of the Blessed One is perfectly expounded; to be seen here and now; not delayed in
time; inviting one to come and see; onward leading (to Nibbana); to be known by the wise, each for himself.
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Re: Dhamma Ending Age

Postby binocular » Mon Jul 15, 2013 10:01 am

mikenz66 wrote:We have less consensus on whether some modern developments ("Dhamma Lite" if you like) are actually ineffective but it's obviously a question worth exploring.

Of course they are effective. The only question is toward what goal.
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