Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

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Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:27 pm

Expelled - no inteligence allowed, look at what happens to people who don't tow the evelutionist line, and think how much money goes into the accepted line through credible means in comparison to ID (credible being university grants etc not private funding to further a view such as is the case with most id funding), also it is interesting to know what a leading scientist of the evolutionist theory thinks about how life started.
c

Cant really see how this film comes into the discussion. That film was creationist propaganda. The "intelligent Design" argument is nothing more than religious belief dressed as science


The reason its rejected by the mainstream is because of that very fact, its religious faith not scientific search for truth


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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:40 pm

it wasn't the ID part but what happens to people who legitimately stray away from what is accepted, but if you actually look at the film you would see what it is actually about.

EDIT
you may wish to see what the film is about before jumping to conclusions
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:53 pm

Manapa wrote:it wasn't the ID part but what happens to people who legitimately stray away from what is accepted, but if you actually look at the film you would see what it is actually about.

EDIT
you may wish to see what the film is about before jumping to conclusions



And your assuming that i havent. I have watched the film, it basically was saying "look at these martyrs"


The people in those films were/are pushing to teach their religious belief, dressed up as science, in centres of learning. It would stunt learning


To drift into the debate to back this point, you cant say "God did it" because that doesnt explain anything, in the same way as saying "God makes storms" doesnt explain how storms comes to be and in fact shields the truth. If we stuck to the view of God making storms, we would have never learnt anything about storms and human knowledge would be stunted


I watched an interview with the guy who presented the film (forget his name) and it came down to the fact that he didnt like evolution because it leaves out a need for God and threatens the possibility of an afterlife, he didnt like that so he backs ID. I have read that he now "doesnt believe" in evolution :roll:

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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:28 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Manapa wrote:it wasn't the ID part but what happens to people who legitimately stray away from what is accepted, but if you actually look at the film you would see what it is actually about.
EDIT
you may wish to see what the film is about before jumping to conclusions


And your assuming that i havent. I have watched the film, it basically was saying "look at these martyrs"

The people in those films were/are pushing to teach their religious belief, dressed up as science, in centres of learning. It would stunt learning

To drift into the debate to back this point, you cant say "God did it" because that doesnt explain anything, in the same way as saying "God makes storms" doesnt explain how storms comes to be and in fact shields the truth. If we stuck to the view of God making storms, we would have never learnt anything about storms and human knowledge would be stunted

I watched an interview with the guy who presented the film (forget his name) and it came down to the fact that he didnt like evolution because it leaves out a need for God and threatens the possibility of an afterlife, he didnt like that so he backs ID. I have read that he now "doesnt believe" in evolution :roll:
metta


ok try watching it without thinking this is ID's attempt at crushing evolution (which it isn't) it is an atttempt to start a propper debate without scientists fearing reprimand for agreeing with an alternative view, ID doesn't necessarily equate to the abrahamic view of how it all began there are other possibilities which can't be looked at because there is not enough people looking at the question due to the reprisals.

I don't actually agree with ID as it stands, but science works by having a question and working out ways of answering that question (premiss) and then seeing if this or these are correct or not in anyway shape or form, not thats wrong because it means a god exists, or teaching that would stunt growth, which arent arguments but a distraction from actually addressing the question. which they don't acctually want to answer because it would mean being wrong about something pottentially
a monkey throwing poop still gets poop on himself, and that thinking in and of itself stunts learning.
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:03 pm

Hey



ok try watching it without thinking this is ID's attempt at crushing evolution (which it isn't) it is an atttempt to start a propper debate without scientists fearing reprimand for agreeing with an alternative view, ID doesn't necessarily equate to the abrahamic view of how it all began there are other possibilities which can't be looked at because there is not enough people looking at the question due to the reprisals.


From memory i think most of those scientists are Fundemental Christians. However ID doesnt have to mean Theism, i agree here. However it still falls apart even if you claim it as Deism since it doesnt explain anything and stops people asking questions to explain said problem

Take the origin of the universe. We can either say an intelligence did it or we can be honest and say "we dont know" and investigate that. The scientific mainstream admits they dont know and are working to discover the secret. The IDers claim they already know through intelligent design, although there is no proof so it falls back onto faith and hence its a personal conviction and not scientific knowledge

I don't actually agree with ID as it stands, but science works by having a question and working out ways of answering that question (premiss) and then seeing if this or these are correct or not in anyway shape or form, not thats wrong because it means a god exists, or teaching that would stunt growth, which arent arguments but a distraction from actually addressing the question. which they don't acctually want to answer because it would mean being wrong about something pottentially
a monkey throwing poop still gets poop on himself, and that thinking in and of itself stunts learning.


But by saying god or some intelligence did it doesnt explain anything. The only scientific and honest way is to admit "we dont know" and apply the scientific method to find out. Saying that a god did it is ending the race before you began because you already claim an answer to the question while real science starts with the question and tries to find the answer


Intelligent design and the like belong in the realms of religion and philosophy class not science class, where Iders want it to be



And yes the film was an attempt to promote ID at the expense of Evolution by the film trying to equate the theory with the holocaust and totalitarian communist governments. Ben Stein has also gone onto deny evolution, i think on the grounds of not enough evidence as well as the above mentioned
crimes :roll:



Stein: …Love of God and compassion and empathy leads you to a very glorious place, and science leads you to killing people.


As i said, religious creationist propaganda, need i say more?


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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:36 pm

Like I originally said it was a related note not subject, this is a tobacco related thread where I am discussing a particular part of that subject not ID or creationism V's Evolution, although thankyou for proving my point Clw.

stray from the pary line your shouted down.
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:40 pm

tiltbillings wrote:How accurate, Manapa, is Expelled - no inteligence allowed?


not sure irony maybe?
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:53 pm

BlackBird wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How accurate, Manapa, is Expelled - no inteligence allowed?


I'm not sure how you actually feel, as emotions are hard to express, and easy to misinterprete over the internet.
But the way you have been talking in this thread, I think, has some serious potential to cause suffering.

Stay well my friend.


That does not quite answer the question about the film that you quoted and what you have said is an ad hominem.

But do tell me why calling smoking a stinky filthy habit would cause suffering, or why objecting to the denial of the connexion between smoking is a cause of suffering, given that the United States tobacco companies have admitted in courts of law the connxion about which they have known for decades and have given up billions of dollars in compensation as a result. in other wortds there is a large body of evidence to make the connexion point, contrary to Manapa's supposed evidence otherwise. I'll believe the tobacco companies.
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:54 pm

Manapa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How accurate, Manapa, is Expelled - no inteligence allowed?


not sure irony maybe?


No, a straightforward question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby clw_uk » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:55 pm

Manapa wrote:Like I originally said it was a related note not subject, this is a tobacco related thread where I am discussing a particular part of that subject not ID or creationism V's Evolution, although thankyou for proving my point Clw.

stray from the pary line your shouted down.




Because its an attempt to distort scientific truth and pursuit of truth into personal convictions



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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:05 am

tiltbillings wrote:Smoking kills an untold numbers of people, but I am not interested in getting into squabbles about this or that connexion or lack of connexion. Basically and undeniably, it is a stinky, filthy habit, which those who opt to smoke certainly have some right to do, but - in the very least - they have no right to inflict the effluvia of smoking upon others, but that is the least of what smoking inflicts upon others.


Hi Tilt been going over some of the other posts again which I referenced but didn't reply to!

just to be clear I am not saying smoking doesn't have ill effects, or in some cases contribute to a genetic predisposition, but the evidence doesn't always match other evidence and there lies the problem. I know there are some conditions which are 100% smoking related you name or at least hint at them above and earlier if i remember correctly, but there are others which are at the very least so weakly linked and highly pomped that someone who couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag could break - to use a rather over hyped comparison :) evidence is selectively fed to the public and the studdy isn't credited so it can be reviewed by interested public easily.

It was actually a non-smoker who pointed out the problems initially to me.
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"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:12 am

clw_uk wrote:


Because its an attempt to distort scientific truth and pursuit of truth into personal convictions


That characterizes the "documentrary" rather well.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
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Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:


Because its an attempt to distort scientific truth and pursuit of truth into personal convictions


That characterizes the "documentrary" rather well.


actually it caracterises allot of what is said on the subject rather well from both sided.

poop flinging is not truth
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:41 am

actually it caracterises allot of what is said on the subject rather well from both sided.

poop flinging is not truth



Its important to defend scientifc truth and the scientifc method from being twisted to suite the whims of individual or group convictions, otherwise truth and reality get distorted or lost


Evolution is a scientific theory that is well grounded in evidence and tells us a great deal about reality, ID does not have any of this since there is no real evidence because its based on belief and doesnt really tell us anything about reality


Something that explains everything actually explains nothing


As i said earlier, saying "god did it" doesnt explain anything because you take that as the answer to the question so all questioning and investigation stops, learning and development stops. Why bother trying to investigate if you already know the answer behind it, which is what ID stands for
Last edited by clw_uk on Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:53 am

Gentlemen
Lets get back to topic - smoking.
Anything to do with intelligent design, feel free to start a new thread.
Thanks for your cooperation.

Ben
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Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby clw_uk » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:59 am

Hey


Just creating this thread to clear up the Tobacco one



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Re: Is tobacco a drug

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:03 am

Monkey picks up poop, on first throw hits target on second throw missed target, still has poop on his hand, on realising slaps his own face!

in other words make sure you defend truth with nothing other than truth otherwise you are doing nothing other than distorting truth.

you both (tilt and clw) have shared personal views and opinions which are not necesarilly true in defence of your side! so how is that not distorting the truth?
or is truth personal opinions about a theories effect with no actual proof? or what some supposed intelectuals say?

Ehipassiko see for yourself
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:04 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Manapa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:How accurate, Manapa, is Expelled - no inteligence allowed?


not sure irony maybe?


No, a straightforward question.


so what is the question?

EDIT
seames more like a statement?
Last edited by Cittasanto on Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby Ben » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:13 am

ok guys
electro-macrame complete!
Cheers

Ben

EDIT: Ignore the previous individual post titles, we're actually in 'Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism
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Re: Evolution and Intelligent Design/Creationism

Postby tiltbillings » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:33 am

Manapa wrote:
so what is the question?


How accurate, Manapa, is Expelled - no inteligence allowed?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
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