Read MN47.BlackBird wrote:The Buddha did not teach us to be skeptics.wormhole wrote: No. The Buddha taught us to be skeptics and question for ourselves. I was answering your question regarding Christianity, was I not?
Should Wives Be Obedient?
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
How is discussing the Buddha's teachings stupid?SDC wrote:Wow this thread is stupid.
Sorry to all for the negative post but I had to say it.
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
I think what is important to say is that Buddha also taught each individual's social practices should be compatible with each individual's Dharma.
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
The sutta is an artifact of the status quo within an ancient culture of gender relationships.wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm
With regards to the ancient literature, we shouldn't just accept it all blindly but use our common sense and discernment.
If we were to apply the lessons from the above sutta in today's context it would be about mutual respect, cooperation and mutual responsibility between a husband and a wife.
kind regards,
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
I agree, but I think that although my personal belief is that a woman can find happiness in a non-sub-servant role as a wife, I think depending on the person it may be wise for their Dharma to be in a traditional, Bhudda-taught role.Ben wrote:The sutta is an artifact of the status quo within an ancient culture of gender relationships.wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:
http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm
With regards to the ancient literature, we shouldn't just accept it all blindly but use our common sense and discernment.
If we were to apply the lessons from the above sutta in today's context it would be about mutual respect, cooperation and mutual responsibility between a husband and a wife.
kind regards,
Ben
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
It would be wise for them to practice the Noble Eightfold Path and not live as a doormat to a domineering husband.wormhole wrote:I think depending on the person it may be wise for their Dharma to be in a traditional, Bhudda-taught role.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
Greetings,
The system the Buddha teaches doesn't look like one of sub-servience to me - it's a form of mutual duty and service, and to that extent I think it's a beautiful thing.
Metta,
Retro.
The system the Buddha teaches doesn't look like one of sub-servience to me - it's a form of mutual duty and service, and to that extent I think it's a beautiful thing.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
Let us ask a simpler question than " Should Wives Be Obedient ", such as if Buddha was alive today will he insist that his followers memorize passages or will he want his words to be recorded in digital format and the transcripts saved on cloud ( computing ).
The alacrity with which Suttas are quoted makes me aware that someone will soon quote a Sutta passage where Buddha said " remember my words " and then insist that Buddha if born today will have insisted his words be memorized.
When reading Suttas, view it through the prism of modern life. Do you take herbs to relieve pain after surgery ? No. So you have accepted that you do not live 2,500 years ago. To lend an esoteric touch to your life, you may find orthodox, unbending view appealing. But adhering to the Suttas blindly is ALSO a fetter. Quoting Suttas to suit your point of view at drop of a hat is also a fetter. It is as much a fetter as dreaming of buying a Lamborghini 24x7. Further it shows you have no capacity of independent thought - a trait Buddha will not have liked much. Buddha himself was very unorthodox. He gave up life of wealth for life of an ascetic. He went against what 99.999 % people believed at that time and proposed radically different viewpoints.
Follow him.
Buddha said everything is impermanent. Same applies to the Suttas ( except for the 25 % most essential part about path of Enlightenment )
The alacrity with which Suttas are quoted makes me aware that someone will soon quote a Sutta passage where Buddha said " remember my words " and then insist that Buddha if born today will have insisted his words be memorized.
When reading Suttas, view it through the prism of modern life. Do you take herbs to relieve pain after surgery ? No. So you have accepted that you do not live 2,500 years ago. To lend an esoteric touch to your life, you may find orthodox, unbending view appealing. But adhering to the Suttas blindly is ALSO a fetter. Quoting Suttas to suit your point of view at drop of a hat is also a fetter. It is as much a fetter as dreaming of buying a Lamborghini 24x7. Further it shows you have no capacity of independent thought - a trait Buddha will not have liked much. Buddha himself was very unorthodox. He gave up life of wealth for life of an ascetic. He went against what 99.999 % people believed at that time and proposed radically different viewpoints.
Follow him.
Buddha said everything is impermanent. Same applies to the Suttas ( except for the 25 % most essential part about path of Enlightenment )
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
I have, more than once.wormhole wrote:Read MN47.BlackBird wrote:The Buddha did not teach us to be skeptics.wormhole wrote: No. The Buddha taught us to be skeptics and question for ourselves. I was answering your question regarding Christianity, was I not?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
- Modus.Ponens
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
I'm sorry, but does anybody else sense trolling?
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
- tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
You would really expect your wife to get up before you and go to bed after you as part of her service to you?retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
The system the Buddha teaches doesn't look like one of sub-servience to me - it's a form of mutual duty and service, and to that extent I think it's a beautiful thing.
Metta,
Retro.
Speaking for myself, my wife is not my servant in any shape. form, or manner; rather, she is an equal partner.
•he should respect her wishes as she his,
•both should give pleasure and be of sweet speech.
•the parents and elders and all those whom they hold in esteem, should be reverenced and honoured;
•they both should be skilful in all the duties of the household and child rearing;
(Since most average Westerners do not have servant and both partners work, the following two item can be altered:)
•they both should look after the house and its upkeep.
•they should safeguard each other's interests and look after their wealth; both should be of virtuous conduct in every way.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
Greetings,
It seems there's all too many people nowadays who aren't willing to do something for someone else without expecting anything in return, and what might look like a modern enlightened "equal partner" concept can at times be little more than a transactional market-place of mutual exchange and territorial power-plays. That feels like a lot of effort to me.
As the Buddha taught, the merit associated with offerings is dependent upon the intention and state of mind in which it is offered. If someone can't give of themselves without it being part of a transactional bargain, then I think it's their loss.
The more selfless the intent, the greater the potential union, yet also the greater personal risk. Personally, I believe in courage and have faith in the efficacy of kamma...
Metta,
Retro.
No, I wouldn't. It's the underlying notion of mutual duty and service itself that I find appealing, as opposed to specific possible prescriptive examples of it.tiltbillings wrote:You would really expect your wife to get up before you and go to bed after you as part of her service to you?
It seems there's all too many people nowadays who aren't willing to do something for someone else without expecting anything in return, and what might look like a modern enlightened "equal partner" concept can at times be little more than a transactional market-place of mutual exchange and territorial power-plays. That feels like a lot of effort to me.
As the Buddha taught, the merit associated with offerings is dependent upon the intention and state of mind in which it is offered. If someone can't give of themselves without it being part of a transactional bargain, then I think it's their loss.
The more selfless the intent, the greater the potential union, yet also the greater personal risk. Personally, I believe in courage and have faith in the efficacy of kamma...
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
Nah. Don't think so. Gender roles are very rigid in Asian Buddhist countries and the Buddha's words from the Suttas are often drawn up to support these ideas.Modus.Ponens wrote:I'm sorry, but does anybody else sense trolling?
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
, Retro, as usual.
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?
Giving of one's self without expectation of return, it goes without saying. Among other things, it is part of a mutual loving relationship that plays itself out over time through the hard times and good times a couple/family may have.retrofuturist wrote:
As the Buddha taught, the merit associated with offerings is dependent upon the intention and state of mind in which it is offered. If someone can't give of themselves without it being part of a transactional bargain, then I think it's their loss.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723