How Far Can A Householder Proceed

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: How Far Can A Householder Proceed

Post by santa100 »

Zenainder wrote:Renunciation takes first place in the mind and then in action. Take for instance if I realize an ability to objectively observe the desire for sexual activity, it only burns as strong as my attachment to said desire. The desire may arise, I may note it, and it will cease. Over time as that relationship with this desire changes and when it arises it will not happen with overwhelming lust. In a future mind state it will be realized fundamentally as suffering and thus a letting go occurs. A householder who is married, even after this occurs, may or may not still engage in sexual activity and may do so out of devotion for spouse. The main difference being that attachment does not occur within the mind.
This is ambiguous. Are you saying one can still engage in sexual activity without a single trace of attachment to sensual lust? Physiologically speaking, it's not even possible for a man to carry out this "duty" to his wife without a single trace of sensual lust.. :tongue: Ok, seriously, MN 81 was quite clear about the case of Ghatikara attaining non-return thru his conducts as specified. One of which is observing celibacy. One of the key mark of non-return is the "destruction of the five lower fetters" (identity view, wrong grasp of rules, doubt, ill will, AND sensual lust). Skipping this important fetter, at best a householder could only reach once-return, which is defined as the destruction of the lower 3 fetters and the "weakening" of lust, hatred, and delusion..
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Zenainder
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Joined: Fri May 17, 2013 11:10 am

Re: How Far Can A Householder Proceed

Post by Zenainder »

santa100 wrote:
Zenainder wrote:Renunciation takes first place in the mind and then in action. Take for instance if I realize an ability to objectively observe the desire for sexual activity, it only burns as strong as my attachment to said desire. The desire may arise, I may note it, and it will cease. Over time as that relationship with this desire changes and when it arises it will not happen with overwhelming lust. In a future mind state it will be realized fundamentally as suffering and thus a letting go occurs. A householder who is married, even after this occurs, may or may not still engage in sexual activity and may do so out of devotion for spouse. The main difference being that attachment does not occur within the mind.
This is ambiguous. Are you saying one can still engage in sexual activity without a single trace of attachment to sensual lust? Physiologically speaking, it's not even possible for a man to carry out this "duty" to his wife without a single trace of sensual lust.. :tongue: Ok, seriously, MN 81 was quite clear about the case of Ghatikara attaining non-return thru his conducts as specified. One of which is observing celibacy. One of the key mark of non-return is the "destruction of the five lower fetters" (identity view, wrong grasp of rules, doubt, ill will, AND sensual lust). Skipping this important fetter, at best a householder could only reach once-return, which is defined as the destruction of the lower 3 fetters and the "weakening" of lust, hatred, and delusion..
Well, I had a thoughtful response and it failed to post. I will cut it short and humorously say you are "wrong" and skip away happily. :lol:

*be advised sarcasm may be present within this message
Bakmoon
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Re: How Far Can A Householder Proceed

Post by Bakmoon »

The sutta never says that Ghaṭīkāra attained non-returning from the practice of holding these precepts. In fact, when look at the textual context in which this is mentioned, it gives a rather different impression. It says:
MN81 Ghaṭīkāra Sutta - Ghaṭīkāra the Potter wrote: 17. “Then, it being morning, the Blessed One Kassapa, accomplished and fully enlightened, dressed, and taking his bowl and outer robe, he went with the Sangha of bhikkhus to the dwelling of King Kikī of Kāsi and sat down on the seat made ready. Then, with his own hands, King Kikī of Kāsi served and satisfied the Sangha of bhikkhus headed by the Buddha with the various kinds of good food. When the Blessed One Kassapa, accomplished and fully enlightened, had eaten and had put his bowl aside, King Kikī of Kāsi took a low seat, sat down at one side and said: ‘Venerable sir, let the Blessed One accept from me a residence for the Rains in Benares; there will be such service to the Sangha.’—‘Enough, king, my residence for the Rains has already been provided for.’

“A second and a third time King Kikī of Kāsi said: ‘Venerable sir, let the Blessed One accept from me a residence for the Rains in Benares; that will be helpful for the Sangha.’—‘Enough, king, my residence for the Rains has already been provided for.’

“The king thought: ‘The Blessed One Kassapa, [51] accomplished and fully enlightened, does not accept from me a residence for the Rains in Benares,’ and he was very disappointed and sad.

18. “Then he said: ‘Venerable sir, have you a better supporter than I am?’—‘I have, great king. There is a market town called Vebhalinga where a potter named Ghaṭīkāra lives. He is my supporter, my chief supporter. Now you, great king, thought: “The Blessed One Kassapa, accomplished and fully enlightened, does not accept from me a residence for the Rains in Benares,” and you were very disappointed and sad; but the potter Ghaṭīkāra is not and will not be so. The potter Ghaṭīkāra has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha. He abstains from killing living beings, from taking what is not given, from misconduct in sensual pleasures, from false speech, and from wine, liquor, and intoxicants, which are the basis of negligence. He has unwavering confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and he possesses the virtues loved by noble ones. He is free from doubt about suffering, about the origin of suffering, about the cessation of suffering, and about the way leading to the cessation of suffering. He eats only one meal a day, he observes celibacy, he is virtuous, of good character. He has laid aside gems and gold, he has given up gold and silver. He does not dig the ground for clay with a pick or with his own hands; what has broken off riverbanks or is thrown up by rats, he brings home in a carrier; when he has made a pot he says: “Let anyone who likes set down some selected rice or selected beans or selected lentils, and let him take away whatever he likes.”794 He supports his blind and aged parents. [52] Having destroyed the five lower fetters, he is one who will reappear spontaneously [in the Pure Abodes] and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world.
In context we see that the Buddha Kassapa gave this description of Ghaṭīkāra in response to a specific question. King Kikī of Kāsi wanted to invite the Buddha Kassapa to stay the rains retreat under his support, and was denied, and asked about the qualities of who the Buddha's chief supporter was. When viewed in this context, it is clear that the Buddha Kassapa was describing Ghaṭīkāra's traits first in terms of virtue and secondly in terms of spiritual attainments. The Buddha Kassapa was not giving an instruction on how Ghaṭīkāra actually attained non-returning, but was merely describing his positive traits as a justification for receiving the rains residence from him, so we cannot use this description to conclude that this was the means he attained non-returning. We can't even conclude that he kept these practices prior to attaining it.

I think that the example of Ghaṭīkāra is an apt example though to show that laypeople can gain high attainments. It is true that he lived a very ascetic life in terms of not following sensual pleasures, but he wasn't very monastic in terms of lifestyle otherwise. It must have required a lot of exertion and work for him to be able to support himself bartering with pots he made himself and taking care of his parents for example. He wasn't like a monk living in the forest meditating for 16 hours a day.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
arijitmitter
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:24 am

Re: How Far Can A Householder Proceed

Post by arijitmitter »

Bakmoon wrote: I think that the example of Ghaṭīkāra is an apt example though to show that laypeople can gain high attainments. It is true that he lived a very ascetic life in terms of not following sensual pleasures, but he wasn't very monastic in terms of lifestyle otherwise. It must have required a lot of exertion and work for him to be able to support himself bartering with pots he made himself and taking care of his parents for example. He wasn't like a monk living in the forest meditating for 16 hours a day.
Please read MN 81 carefully. Ghatikara did not bargain. He said give what you want rice, lentils and take what you want. Potters in India would work two weeks and make lots of pots etc and take two weeks off. So he probably had plenty of off time.

Unless you work in a factory or office you are not required to work daily. Does a farmer in the West work daily ? ( agricultural farmers not cow and pig owning farmers ). Between sowing a crop and harvesting it they have plenty of time. Between harvesting and waiting for next crop cycle they have plenty of time. Life of a farmer is long spells of no work or little work and sudden spurts of lot of work for few weeks.

Daily work is a creation of Industrial Revolution.

He was not in a forest, but urban settlements at that time had plenty of foliage. A man would not need to walk more than 1000 feet to find dense woods unless he lived in a place like Varanasi. And only one or two places matched that size in ancient India. Even now when we have 1.2 billion population you do not need to walk more than half a mile to find dense woods in a semi urban, rural area.
Last edited by arijitmitter on Thu Jul 18, 2013 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: How Far Can A Householder Proceed

Post by SarathW »

When I think about this issue in a lighter note, the biggest road block, for a house holder is to maintain a celibacy life. With very little experience I have, I am not sure whether all monks observe celibacy anyway! When I go to a temple what I see is that the monk’s life is harder and busier than a lay person. They spent too much time with building temples and attending to rituals. This issue also should give enough weighing to the number of monks who attain any spiritual attainment as well.
I have very little exposure to forest monks.
If someone is single and got the internet, they will have all the support require to attain Nirvana. Doing a day job is not a major hurdle . If Buddha was here today he would have used internet as his Dhamma launching pad! :coffee: What we need are some very good monks to support us.
In my opinion a person should try his very best to live like a monk before he leave his/her house hold life. The best place to try your virtues is the householder life. If you can survive here you can survive anywhere.
Having said all this I have not eliminate the possibility that one day I also will be a monk wearing a robe. :)
Please give some thought to the attached article if you are planning to become a monk. Please note that I do not endorse the content of this article. It is just some food for thought.

http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/pdf/Dha ... Buddha.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
arijitmitter
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:24 am

Re: How Far Can A Householder Proceed

Post by arijitmitter »

SarathW wrote: Having said all this I have not eliminate the possibility that one day I also will be a monk wearing a robe. :)
Sarath, I have seriously considered becoming a monk in last one month. Being single I have no obstacle. But I think if one wants to become a monk one should do so by 30 at latest ( exceptions maybe there ). After that the mind is too rigid to accept an organisational structure. Also one would look quite stupid studying next to kids who are 17.

However, one can become as ascetic at any age. I have set my mind on a lower goal - to become a recluse. But becoming a recluse in an urban environment is hard - doorbell alone rings six times in evening :( phone 6 times :( add that to faucet leak etc :( I stated earlier !! I want 48 hours alone !! :cry:
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