Should Wives Be Obedient?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
wormhole
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by wormhole »

Ben wrote:
wormhole wrote:I think depending on the person it may be wise for their Dharma to be in a traditional, Bhudda-taught role.
It would be wise for them to practice the Noble Eightfold Path and not live as a doormat to a domineering husband.
Agreed. I didn't say otherwise. If one was to follow the Buddha-taught roles of the wife rigidly, then conversely the husband would have to practice his as they were taught, which would prevent abuse, in theory.

Personally, I find the Buddha's teachings wise-guidelines that can still help us today, but me must tailor them to our own individual and personally I could never have a subservient wife; just wouldn't give me the same happiness of having a COMPLETELY equal relationship. The purpose of this thread was to see if others thought a subservient wife role was still good for some women, which I've always gone back and forth on in opinion in regards to that.
arijitmitter
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by arijitmitter »

At that time ( or even till 100 years back ) Asian men who were wealthy had several wives and mistresses. It would be necessary for them to be subservient or argument will break out in the household.

This is true even now in rigid Islamic countries ( harem ). You can still see a snapshot of society from 2,500 years back in India in any Islamic nation. Women are not allowed to drive, not allowed to speak to strangers, not allowed education and so on. It is a totally different universe from what all of us are used to.

Was the woman Buddha was instructing the only wife ? Probably not.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by tiltbillings »

arijitmitter wrote:At that time ( or even till 100 years back ) Asian men who were wealthy had several wives and mistresses. It would be necessary for them to be subservient or argument will break out in the household.

This is true even now in rigid Islamic countries ( harem ). You can still see a snapshot of society from 2,500 years back in India in any Islamic nation. Women are not allowed to drive, not allowed to speak to strangers, not allowed education and so on. It is totally a different Universe from what all of us are used to.

Was the woman Buddha was instructing the only wife ? Probably not.
And the point is that the Buddha's instructions, as literally read, need to be adapted to a very different time and cultural differences.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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SDC
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by SDC »

tiltbillings wrote:
SDC wrote:Wow this thread is stupid.

Sorry to all for the negative post but I had to say it.
It probably is stupid, rather than pooping on the thread, why don't you try to add some insight and intelligence into it.
I did by saying it was stupid. :smile:
wormhole wrote:
SDC wrote:Wow this thread is stupid.

Sorry to all for the negative post but I had to say it.
How is discussing the Buddha's teachings stupid?
Some enjoy answering loaded questions, but I don't. Enjoy feeling like your agenda has something to do with the teachings of the Buddha.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Aloof
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Aloof »

wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm

Every word of this Sutta is absolutely right.
This sutta applies to 100% pure women and 100 % pure men.
Present men and women after many centuries of start of men and women and intermixing
are not pure.
Men have more than 50% male qualities but much below 100%,
and women vice versa.
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Ben
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Ben »

Aloof wrote:
wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm

Every word of this Sutta is absolutely right.
This sutta applies to 100% pure women and 100 % pure men.
Present men and women after many centuries of start of men and women and intermixing
are not pure.
Men have more than 50% male qualities but much below 100%,
and women vice versa.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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PeterB
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by PeterB »

wormhole wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That is response of the fundamentalist, literalist Christian to not taking the Bible as being true in every word that is written in the Bible.
Any Christians who don't take all words of the Bible as true are contradicting their own religion. They believe an omniscient supreme deity inspired their word, meaning every word should be correct.
Really ? I am a member of the Orthodox church and I think that the Bible is a ragbag of genuine insights, true record, sublime poetry, myths, and politics...and so do most non- Evangelical Christians that I know.
Your judgement is like assuming that all Buddhists are Soka-Gakkai.

After centuries of working through gender politics it is astonishing to a Christian to see western and western educated Buddhists having to INITIATE that dialogue...
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tiltbillings
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:
wormhole wrote:Like Buddha said several times, should we still uphold things like this:

http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_n ... gaha_s.htm

Every word of this Sutta is absolutely right.
This sutta applies to 100% pure women and 100 % pure men.
Present men and women after many centuries of start of men and women and intermixing
are not pure.
Men have more than 50% male qualities but much below 100%,
and women vice versa.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Bilge water.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Kim OHara
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Kim OHara »

BlackBird wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:I'm sorry, but does anybody else sense trolling?
Nah. Don't think so. Gender roles are very rigid in Asian Buddhist countries and the Buddha's words from the Suttas are often drawn up to support these ideas.
I'm with you, Modus.Ponens, and with SDC. Very smelly right for the start: a question asked by a newbie and neatly framed to generate controversy between those who respect the spirit of the teachings and those who respect its scriptures ... making it unresolvable. :toilet:

:namaste:
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Aloof
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Aloof »

Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:
wormhole wrote:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

All the time cosmic energy coming down splits.

Pure Cosmic energy male was action oriented and dictative.
Pure Cosmic energy female was emotional and subjective.

Today males have emotional energies to some extent and
females have also been forced to become action oriented to survive.
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BlackBird
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by BlackBird »

I think the internet has become a little bit overly-suspicious when it comes to the motives of posters. I suppose it's the boy-who-cried-wolf effect. But I for one tend to take people at face value. What's the motive in coming to some obscure Buddhist forum simply to sow discord? The OP wants an obedient wife and Aloof think's he's a "Buddha-son" and has mastered the Dhamma of the Mahayana. No ulterior motives from where I stand.

But I have to say Aloof, your cosmic deepities are not my cup of tea :P
Last edited by BlackBird on Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Aloof,

I think you might enjoy this...

The Way of the Superior Man: A Spiritual Guide to Mastering the Challenges of Women, Work, and Sexual Desire
By David Deida
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1591792576

I can't say it's Theravadin in origin, but neither is anything else you're saying.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by chownah »

Marriage is a worldly thing...the Buddha knew that...in the world in the buddha's lifetime the marriage contract was that a woman would be subservient to her husband....so it seems obvious that the Buddha would describe a good wife as he did. Today marriage is still a worldly thing and I'm sure that he would give advice about a good spouse quite in line with the worldly expectations for marriage in the present.
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Aloka
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote:And the point is that the Buddha's instructions, as literally read, need to be adapted to a very different time and cultural differences.
Absolutely. Women in the modern western world have equal job opportunities, there is child care, pre-school, formal education from ages 5 till 18 for children and couples often share the family finances and responsibilities. ...and so on.

Women don't stay at home being obedient co-wives like they did 2,500 years ago in India.

However this doesn't mean that there can't be respectful and loving relationships between couples and in families in general which is in harmony with Dhamma practice.
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lyndon taylor
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Re: Should Wives Be Obedient?

Post by lyndon taylor »

I wouldn't be so sure women in the Buddha's time were at home taking care of the house, they were probably out in the fields taking care of the crops too, as well as buying and selling in the market.

According to some Tibetan commentators, the mens job was to sit around looking pretty while women did almost all the work, that's what is know as a matriachal society!!! I don't think Indian culture was matriarchal, but I would be surprised if womens responsibilities didn't extend well outside house keeping.........
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:03 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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