Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter?

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Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter?

Postby starter » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:48 pm

After pondering about the translation of “ill will” (adhammacariya visama) in the 10 unwholesome deeds (see MN 41), “ill will” (byāpāda) in the second path factor Right Thinking (samma sankappa, which include right resolve and right thoughts, see MN 19), “ill will” (byāpādo– imāni kho) in the 10 fetters (see SN.45.180) , and AN 3.102, I tend to think that the translation of “ill will” is accurate for the 10 unwholesome deeds, but probably not for the rest of the two cases.

In the case of the second path factor of the N8P, should “byāpāda” be better translated as “hostility/resentment” instead of “ill will”, since the noble disciples on the N8P path should have already removed the “gross sand” of “ill will” and should then be training for the purification of the moderate impurities of the mind?

In the case of the 5th fetter, should “byāpādo– imāni kho” be translated into “aversion” instead of “ill will”? The 5 high fetters have no aversion left, which suggests that the fetter of aversion should have already been removed by non-returners. Opposite to aversion, greed for sensual desire (the 4th fetter) has been removed by non-returners although greed for form/formless existence is still there (the 6th & 7th fetters).

The accurate comprehension of the 2nd path factor will enable us to practice right resolve/thoughts correctly. And the accurate comprehension of the 5th fetter is very important for those who want to become non-returners. The fetter of aversion is much more difficult to break than the fetter of ill will. If the 5th fetter should indeed be aversion, then non-returners should have reached equanimity and have no anger.

Please correct me if I’m wrong. Thanks and metta!

PS1:

AN 3.102 (The goldsmith): mainly from http://www.buddha-vacana.org/sutta/angu ... 3-102.html (with some changes)

In the same way [as purifying gold], there are these gross impurities in a monk intent on heightened mind: misconduct in body, misconduct in speech, & misconduct in mind [unrighteous greed/covetousness, ill will, wrong views (of the law of karma)]. These [Ten unwholesome deeds] the monk — aware & able by nature — abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence [so that they will not rise again].

When he is rid of them, there remain in him the moderate impurities [of mind]: thoughts of sensuality (due to liking), thoughts of hostility/hatred (due to disliking), & harming. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence.

When he is rid of them, there remain in him the fine impurities: thoughts of his caste [greed for status], thoughts of his home district, thoughts related to not wanting to be despised [aversion]. These he abandons, destroys, dispels, wipes out of existence.

When he is rid of them, there remain only thoughts of the Dhamma. His concentration is neither calm nor refined, it has not yet attained serenity or unity, and is kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint. But there comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, grows unified & concentrated. His concentration is calm & refined, has attained serenity & unity, and is no longer kept in place by the fabrication of forceful restraint.

And then whichever of the higher knowledges he turns his mind to know & realize, he can witness them for himself whenever there is an opening.
[Another translation: "Then to whatever realization of knowledge the mind is bent, mindfulness in that sphere becomes the eyewitness."
http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html]

PS2:

vyāpāda or byāpāda -- thoughts related to disliking, wanting to reject; feelings of hostility, resentment, hatred and bitterness; desire to injure, malevolence, ill-will (?).
Last edited by starter on Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter

Postby reflection » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:27 pm

Well, you could look at it from an intellectual point of view and come to a translation you think is best. But from an emotional point of view it doesn't really matter think. Ill will, anger, aversion, etc. all share the same emotional basis. They are different degrees of the same thing. So if you can recognize it, whatever you to call it, it'll not make much difference.
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Re: Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter

Postby starter » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:14 pm

Hello Reflection,

Thanks for your input. While I agree that ill will, hostility, anger, and aversion all share the same emotional basis, I think it does matter that "gross sand (impurities)", "moderate sand", and "fine sand" should be distinguished from each other, and we know which one should be removed first. It matters a lot to me that the 5th fetter is aversion instead of ill will, and the second N8P factor is non-resentment/non-anger instead of non-ill will. It'll determine how I'll "sieve the sand".

Metta to all,

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Re: Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 19, 2013 4:16 pm

And why would the factor of the path not be about all aversion, subtle and big? Also when speaking about gross impurities (although this is more about the path factor of samadhi I would say), I think it includes all of these; the whole range from aversion to pure hate is a gross impurity. Thoughts about not wanting to be despised, which you name aversion, to me seem more connected with conceit, thinking in terms of "them vs me".
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Re: Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter

Postby starter » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:02 pm

As I understand, as the 2nd path factor Samma Sankappa (right thinking) is at the starting stage of the N8P, and is probably meant to form the basis for removing the moderate impurities of the mind including sense desire, hostility/resentment (or sense repulsion ?), and cruelty/harmfulness. The fine impurities such as greed and aversion concerning fame/status, gain/loss, mental pleasure/pain will probably be further suppressed later in the path, such as right effort and mindfulness of feeling and mind (in the Samadhi aggregate of the N8P).

Would it make more sense to practice "non-sense repulsion" (opposite to non-sensuality) instead of "non-ill will" for Samma Sankappa?

I also wonder if the translation of "ill will" is accurate as the 2nd hindrance, which should probably be better translated as "aversion"?

Thanks and metta!
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Re: Is “ill will” accurate as a 2nd path factor & 5th fetter

Postby starter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 2:10 am

I found the following in The Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary:

Byāpāda [fr. vy+ā+pad]: ill-- will, malevolence, one of the 5 "obstructions" (hindrances) (āvaraṇāni, see e. g. S v.94; Nd2 379); and one of the 4 "bonds" (kāya-- ganthā see e. g. Nd1 98) [in formula abhijjhā byāpāda k. upanāha M i.36; A i.299=i]

Patigha: the 5th fetter; literally mean "to hit against" (?)

Vyāpāda [fr. vyāpajjati. See also byāpāda] making bad, doing harm: desire to injure, malevolence, ill-- will D i.71, 246; iii.70 sq., 226, 234; S i.99; ii.151; iv.343; A i.194, 280

Since the 8th fetter restlessness (which could be caused by some greed or aversion at the 6th sense level as I understand) is still not broken by a non-returner, it's possible that the 5th fetter includes both the gross "sand" of ill will and the moderate "sand" of hatred/hostility. The same could apply to the 2nd path factor and the 5th hindrance. Judging from the following teaching, the 5th hindrance should be ill will instead of aversion, since loving-kindness/good will is directed toward living being, not to repulsive environment and etc. that might cause aversion.

“Bhikkhus, I do not see even one other thing on account of which unarisen ill will does not arise and arisen ill will is abandoned so much as the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness. For one who attends carefully to the liberation of the mind by loving-kindness, unarisen ill will does not arise and arisen ill will is abandoned.” [from AN The Book of the Ones - II. ABANDONING THE HINDRANCES http://www.palicanon.org/index.php/sutt ... hindrances]

Metta to all!
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