"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
perkele
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by perkele »

Valued binocular,
binocular wrote:This really hurts, you know. I would think that someone who has been practicing Buddhism for so long would actually pay attention to what people say. Instead, it's like highschool all over again. It would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad.
thank you for sharing your awareness.
It seems very true in some very important sense.

However, take into consideration that so many people here say so many things that it is not easy to listen to everything.

And some things then are wrongly judged as "unwholesome", because they hurt, and people don't like to hear.

Of course, we have to learn right awareness. But we cannot be all aware of everything at the same time. And here many things are shared which are not always useful for all. And then some person says: I don't like it.
Dan74 wrote:So to be frank, I think you got off lightly. What you were putting forward in that thread I found completely off the mark and inappropriate.
So, to say something like this does not really help. Better to say nothing if one does not know better than by close in "winning". One should close in "acknowledging", and saying sorry maybe if one does not understand. So things get lighter.
The thing is, people here are much drawn into all this, arguing back and forth in their minds, to maybe argument for peace.

So one should give those people peace. Really, they are waiting to share wholesome awareness when the time is right. One should be aware a bit more and let go of one's personal fighting.

Of course, binocular, people should learn that.
So thanks for sharing your awareness.
:anjali:

Let's see how we can take it. Let's try and take it with right acknowledgement and not arguments.

We don't know and understand every perspective. That we must rightly acknowledge.


Of course, binocular, what you have been saying about Burma I think mostly was a good intended to stop senseless gossip and fantasy about what is going on in a culture that most of us don't even know. Although I was mostly not really aware to judge with right knowing. But maybe the arguments were not convincing.
However, never try to "win" by arguments. By arguments one never wins. They only go on and on.

That, you clearly know and see for yourself. So don't be sarcastic. But be aware.

I have not been very aware to judge, but I think this is generally your problem:
Here often people are much about "arguments". Much intellectual talking which even goes off reality into spheres of only fighting for wrong acknowledgement. We are in different realms of perception and we must rightly acknowledge this that we don't know much to share wholesome awareness.

So when you see fighting going on far away, don't take it as "yours". Look around where you are. Maybe there are also good things to do.

But in between hot fighting there is also often very useful dialogue. So it is really better to disengage from what is only too hot. Be patient. Things will be better. Patience is the highest virtue, as the Buddha said. It really cannot exist without virtue, and it is the first and last virtue.

It can happen. We cannot be aware of everything.

Don't be sarcastic about the Buddha's Dhamma, only because people have eaten too much of it and are fighting about it. It's not your problem.

We will learn. Have patience.

We are here to learn and share.

:anjali:
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BlackBird
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by BlackBird »

binocular wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Imo nobody wins in conflicts. Everybody wins with harmony though.
Everyone is equal, except that some people are more equal than others, eh?
I fail to see the relation between Animal farm and what I've said, perhaps you could elaborate for me :)
If you're suggesting I hold a view similar to the pigs, you couldn't be more wrong.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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Alex123
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by Alex123 »

BlackBird wrote:
binocular wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Imo nobody wins in conflicts. Everybody wins with harmony though.
Everyone is equal, except that some people are more equal than others, eh?
I fail to see the relation between Animal farm and what I've said, perhaps you could elaborate for me :)
If you're suggesting I hold a view similar to the pigs, you couldn't be more wrong.

Life is cruel and being nice doesn't do it, in fact it makes one a rug for stronger & more cruel person to rub one's dirty boots on.
Acts of kindness, unfortunately, can often be used against one by sharks.
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Dan74
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by Dan74 »

Binocular,

First I think you mistake disagreement for ill-will. Ill-will to me means being negatively disposed towards someone. Disagreeing with your words or opinions doesn't mean I am against you. It just means I disagree. I may disagree strongly because I judge your opinion to be insensitive or harmful, but it doesn't mean that I am ill-disposed to you, as a person. I disagree with my friends, my wife and my kids, but I still care about them very much.
binocular wrote:
Dan74 wrote:I don't recall much ill-will, if any, but this just underscores how different people's perception are. What I do recall is you trying to excuse the events by arguing that the Muslims in Burma were a threat.
There you go. Imputing on me - again - that I tried to excuse the events there.
Talk about ill will.
Well, please go over that thread and see what you wrote. I just jumped back and saw this:
binocular wrote:If someone were to come to cause you and your loved ones harm, what would you do?
Would you just stand there and let them do it?
binocular wrote:But what should those monks do?
Sit there and watch as people are being harmed? Spread thoughts of goodwill to everyone?
Is it unfair to describe these words as "trying to excuse the events by arguing that the Muslims in Burma were a threat"?

Where do you see ill-will? Perhaps in the eye of the beholder...
binocular wrote:
They may well have been perceived to be a threat, but I am yet to see any evidence that they were. Whenever such events happen, whether in Yugoslavia, Rwanda or indeed to the Jews in Europe, the minority is perceived to be a threat, but that doesn't excuse it. In any case broadbrushing the people and killing innocents is murder plain and simple, nothing there that can be whitewashed or excused, though of course it is understandably human.

So to be frank, I think you got off lightly. What you were putting forward in that thread I found completely off the mark and inappropriate.
Talk about ill will.
What I've been saying all along. Make stuff up, accuse a person of something they didn't do, and then proceed in righteous condemnation of them.
Thank you. So Buddhist.
They say truth hurts and perkele below implies that I was being unskillful and this would not help. He/she may well be right, I don't know. At this stage it seems to me that you are not interested in the truth but in people agreeing with you, validating you, praising you and your views, etc. This does not lead to an honest exchange where equals are free to disagree and participants are mature enough to take different perspectives on board. Let me ask you - are you open to different views?
binocular wrote:This really hurts, you know. I would think that someone who has been practicing Buddhism for so long would actually pay attention to what people say. Instead, it's like highschool all over again. It would be funny if it wouldn't be so sad.
Hurting was certainly not my intent, but some say that we best learn through pain. As for being a good Buddhist etc I have only practiced for 10 years and I still screw up quite a lot. In fact I am almost sure that this whole exchange will benefit no one, but on the off chance I am sitting here in the middle of a busy Saturday, between fixing the shed and cooking lunch for my family, in order to write to you, a stranger I've never met and probably never will. Does this also sound like ill-will to you?
_/|\_
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BlackBird
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by BlackBird »

Good on you Dan. :goodpost:

Binocular, it is not fair to project emotions onto people based on how you think they might be feeling. You shouldn't assume that just because someone disagrees with what you've said, even if their disagreement is a very strong disapproval, that this therefore means they're harbouring ill will against you.

Plenty of people here and on the internet in general are in the habit of seeing what they want to see in others posts, instead of asking that person to clarify what it is they're in fact feeling or intending. Projecting doesn't do anyone any good at all.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
dagon
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by dagon »

Apologies for the thread drift.

The latest scandal to hit the “press” in Thailand involves about 30 monks who tested positive to drugs. I had consider mentioning it at the time but decided not to given recent forum history.
http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/442347/tha ... r-drug-use

However reading the whole of the moderated thread (thanks guys) I believe this story has some value in correcting what I perceive as being an imbalance in what has been written. I am sorry if I offend anyone but there a tone that comes across that the majority of posts that western Buddhists are the guardians of the Dhammar and that the Asian countries are unable or unwilling to act where mundane human behaviors have prevailed over the teachings (as I understand them) of Buddha. The events behind this story show that this is not always the case.

Maybe it is time to highlight the actions that the monastic and secular authorities are taking in the Asian countries rather than focusing of the failings of some monks. A more positive attitude will empower those of good intent whereas a negative will build barriers.

Regards and best wishes to all
paul
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BlackBird
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by BlackBird »

A concern I actually have about all these scandals in the news in Thailand is it might futher make Thai laypeople disillusioned with the Sangha. That might result in less support for good honest monks who are not involved in these things simply becase Thai laypeople might become fed up with the scandals and think they can't be bothered supporting monks when they don't know what's going on behind closed doors. That really would be a tragedy for the multitude of virtuous monks, who do not deserve to suffer at the hands of the bad eggs. It's a difficult one, because on the other hand, you can't just hide these things or expect journalists not to publish these stories. One good thing though I think is that the authorities are really pulling their weight in this area of late, and it might in part actually be because of all the negative press forcing them to act. Hard to say really.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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Dan74
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by Dan74 »

Perkele, while this is how it is likely to be perceived my intention was not to "team up against" anyone. Just recently Blackbird and I disagreed rather strongly. This is what happens on these fora a lot and some of it can be useful - we can learn from different perspectives.

Binocular is a frequent contributor and as such is bound to run into some disagreements. I don't think we should take them personally. What do you think?
_/|\_
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manas
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by manas »

Hi Perry

just a suggestion: I don't think your title accurately reflects the subject matter being discussed. 'The Broken Buddha' is a book, and it's neither a scandal, nor is it scandalous. 'Controversial' might be a more fitting term, imo. But really, many of the issues Ven. Dhammika raises are quite common knowledge nowadays. What would be scandalous, would be if he encouraged readers to abandon Buddhism on the basis of these problems - but he does no such thing, and in my case I will disclose that this book spurred me to delve more deeply into, and rely on, the Pali Canon as the ultimate authority in matters of doctrine, with individual teachers' primary role now being to help me understand and interpret it for myself. The end result of reading his book, has been a strengthening and deepening of my conviction in the Buddha Dhamma.

kind regards
manas
:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ben
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by Ben »

manas wrote:Hi Perry

just a suggestion: I don't think your title accurately reflects the subject matter being discussed.
Various threads on the alleged misdeeds of others have been merged.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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manas
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by manas »

Ben wrote:
manas wrote:Hi Perry

just a suggestion: I don't think your title accurately reflects the subject matter being discussed.
Various threads on the alleged misdeeds of others have been merged.
kind regards,

Ben
Ah, thanks for clarifying that Ben, I did not know.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ben
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by Ben »

This thread will be locked temporarily.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
form
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by form »

I actually told Ven Dhammika personally before I enjoyed reading this book of his the most.
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JMGinPDX
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by JMGinPDX »

poto wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I have seen, in the USA, Tibetan and Zen groups just as culturaly rigid as the Thai group in the photo and I have seen Theravadin groups as relaxed as the Tibetan group photo. What basis do we use for making a generalization?
I didn't mean to present it as universal.

There are other Theravadin groups locally that are much better and more relaxed. Perhaps I should have mentioned that as well. I didn't mean to represent it as only or all Theravadin groups, just as an example of a widespread problem that exists here and that I have encountered personally.
As others have pointed out, I think it really depends on who is providing the primary support for and regularly attending the center. If the center/monastery serves primarily a Thai or other ethnic group (Burmese, Sri Lankan, etc.) then you're more likely to see those cultural traditions. I attend a Thai Forest center that caters to Westerners primarily (we have a few Thai practitioners) due to the fact that we don't have a large Thai population in this immediate area, and the Thais that do live here likely go elsewhere to practice in a more familiar environment.
At PFOD, we also have the casual dress and less emphasis on ritual offerings and ceremonies, but we DO have an Upasika program where those who have officially taken the Precepts will wear white/black for monastic visits but dress normally other times.
For me personally, this tradition had just enough ritual/ceremony without going overboard, but more than I would find in secular Insight Meditation traditions. As Ajahn Sona said the last time he visited our center "we in the Thai Forest lineage are the least bow-y of any tradition!" :thumbsup:
Right now, it's like this...
voitsberg.graz48
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Post by voitsberg.graz48 »

I tried to read "The Broken Buddha". Dhammika is complaining that Theravada scriptures are so dry and boring. But the same can I say about his own writing: complaining and complaining, and citing criminal cases of monks. I just stopped reading.
If Theravada is so bad don't become a monk. He wrote that in Thailand people just give to the monks but don't practice meditation . That is wrong. Just take Suan Mokkh monastery. Half of the month is reserved for Thai practitioners.
What happens to Theravada happens to all religions. After some time they became an empty shell. So create your own path.
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