Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SamKR
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Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ
My question:
How do sankhara fabricate vinnana?
How do vinnana arise with the arising of sankhara?

---
For this discussion, the meanings of sankhara and vinnana are to be understood as available in the Pali Nikayas. For example:
Sankhara:
"And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"There are these three fabrications: bodily fabrication, verbal fabrication, mental fabrication. These are called fabrication.

"From the origination of ignorance comes the origination of fabrication. From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrication. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of fabrication is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Vinnana:
"There are these six classes of consciousness: eye-consciousness, ear-consciousness, nose-consciousness, tongue-consciousness, body-consciousness, intellect-consciousness. This is called consciousness.

"From the origination of fabrication comes the origination of consciousness. From the cessation of fabrication comes the cessation of consciousness. And the way of practice leading to the cessation of consciousness is just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
SarathW
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SarathW »

Very simply put it, you raise your question due to your previous fabrications! :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

SarathW wrote:Very simply put it, you raise your question due to your previous fabrications! :)
How?
(My question specifically is: how do consciousness arise with the arising of fabrications?)
SarathW
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SarathW »

Buy reading a Buddhist book you conditioned your mind to think that there is something called “Sankhara”
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

I understand that something can condition other things. But the question is: how do vinnana (six consciousness) arise due to sankhara (bodily, verbal, and mental (past volitional?) fabrications)? How does that process (of fabrications conditioning/causing consciousness) work?
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Jul 23, 2013 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SarathW »

There are no two things called Vinnanam and Sankhara.
They both the same. They arise in tandem. They condition each other.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

SarathW wrote:There are no two things called Vinnanam and Sankhara.
They both the same.
No, they are not the same - as can be seen in their definitions.
SarathW wrote: They arise in tandem. They condition each other
This is true, I think, but does not answer my question.
SarathW
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SarathW »

When you eliminate ignorance you see everything as one! :)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

SarathW wrote:When you eliminate ignorance you see everything as one! :)
I don't understand what you mean by "see everything as one". Could you explain more?
chownah
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by chownah »

SamKR,
Is this what you are looking for? It is from MN28:

Dependent Co-arising
"Now if internally the eye is intact but externally forms do not come into range, nor is there a corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. If internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, but there is no corresponding engagement, then there is no appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness. But when internally the eye is intact and externally forms come into range, and there is a corresponding engagement, then there is the appearing of the corresponding type of consciousness.

"The form of what has thus come into being is gathered under the form clinging-aggregate. The feeling of what has thus come into being is gathered under the feeling clinging-aggregate. The perception of what has thus come into being is gathered under the perception clinging-aggregate. The fabrications of what has thus come into being are gathered under the fabrication clinging-aggregate. The consciousness of what has thus come into being is gathered under the consciousness clinging-aggregate. One discerns, 'This, it seems, is how there is the gathering, meeting, & convergence of these five clinging-aggregates. Now, the Blessed One has said, "Whoever sees dependent co-arising sees the Dhamma; whoever sees the Dhamma sees dependent co-arising."[4] And these things — the five clinging-aggregates — are dependently co-arisen.[5] Any desire, embracing, grasping, & holding-on to these five clinging-aggregates is the origination of stress. Any subduing of desire & passion, any abandoning of desire & passion for these five clinging-aggregates is the cessation of stress.' [6] And even to this extent, friends, the monk has accomplished a great deal......
........
........"

It continues on.....

chownah
SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

Thanks, chownah, but that does not seem to answer my question. I understand that due to "eye" and "forms" there appears eye-consciousness as described in your quote, but how does that eye-consciousness co-arise with "eye" and "forms"? I think such eye-consciousness may appear depending upon something else too, and that "something else" is sankhara. Then the quesiton is how does sankhara (bodily, verbal, mental) give rise to eye-consciousness? Perhaps, sankhara fashions the "eye", "range" and "corresponding engagement" thus fashioning consciousness.

I don't find any suttas that directly answer my questions (if there are, it would be great). That is why I posted my question in Open Dhamma forum so that I may get other members' personal opinions and understandings/insights as well
Last edited by SamKR on Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
chownah
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by chownah »

You are right, I didn't answer your question......somehow I got off track...sorry for that. It's a good question you are asking and I'll be thinking about it while I go make sure the water level in the rice paddy is where I want it and I'll be checking back later to see how the discussion is proceeding.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by tiltbillings »

SamKR wrote:
Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ
My question:
How do sankhara fabricate vinnana?
It depends upon what is meant by "fabricate." Ven Bodhi's "conditions" is far less problematic.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by reflection »

Based on my understanding, a few things that may give some insight:


Like other terms, the terms sankhara and vinnana are used quite widely in the suttas. They both have varying meanings depending on context. For example in some places we see vinnana as a synonym for mind. Now, in the first of the quotes you gave, the Buddha is speaking about the 5 aggregates and in the two others he is speaking about dependent origination, so since he is using the terms in different contexts, he does not necessarily mean the same thing.

Let me start with explaining my understanding of the dependent origination link, because this one is by far the most common in the suttas, so the most important to understand. First, dependent origination is about conditionality, but not necessarily instant conditionality. For example birth is a condition for death, but they don't happen at the same time. Then second, dependent origination sankhara is not all sankhara. It says ignorance leads to sankhara, so the sankhara being spoken about are those based on ignorance, which are not all sankhara. It speaks of those leading to birth, like we see here for example:
"Any brahmans or contemplatives who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who do not know, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': They revel in (thought-) fabrications leading to birth; they revel in fabrications leading to aging; they revel in fabrications leading to death; they revel in fabrications leading to sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
and here the opposite, when ignorance ceases those fabrications won't arise anymore:
He neither fabricates nor wills for the sake of becoming or un-becoming. This being the case, he is not sustained by anything in the world (does not cling to anything in the world). Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/stud ... izing.html
So sankhara here is sankhara that are based on ignorance, the unskillful kamma leading to birth of consciousness, birth of name and form, those are the sankhara in DO. Here we see this process of consciousness in DO being about birth:
"'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
So this is how sankhara leads to consciousness in terms of dependent origination. That's why the suttas say "beings are born of kamma".


In the five aggregates the meaning of sankhara is a bit wider as it naturally must include all sankhara, not just those based on ignorance. The sutta also confirms it is speaking of all sankhara whatsoever. So defining sankhara here, it is all sankhara, all that is creating and changing form, feeling etc. Also the breath is a sankhara in this context, one that obviously is not based on ignorance. You can also see that in the sutta he speaks in another way about sankhara with respect to consciousness. He doesn't say one conditions (paccaya) the other.

So when speaking of sankhara creating consciousness here, it speaks of how due to sense contact there arises consciousness in general. There is a process going on to turn an object via the respective sense, into contact, into consciousness. This process in itself is what the Buddha called a sankhara as well. An important part of this process is turning the attention towards the thing that one of conscious of and I think that's the main sankhara the Buddha is pointing to. But, this is not necessarily an unwholesome sankhara, not a rebirth producing sankhara.

:anjali:
santa100
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by santa100 »

From Ven. Bodhi's instroduction to "The Middle Length Discourse":
According to the usual interpretation, the series of twelve factors extends over three lives and divides into causal and resultant phases. The gist of it can be briefly explained as follows. Because of ignorance (avijjā)—defined as non-knowledge of the Four Noble Truths—a person engages in volitional actions or kamma, which may be bodily, verbal, or mental, wholesome or unwholesome. These kammic actions are the formations (sankhārā), and they ripen in states of consciousness (viññāṇa)—first as the rebirth-consciousness at the moment of conception and thereafter as the passive states of consciousness resulting from kamma that matures in the course of a lifetime.
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