Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

tiltbillings wrote:It depends upon what is meant by "fabricate." Ven Bodhi's "conditions" is far less problematic.
Yes,maybe "conditions" is a better one, or maybe other translations are also okay for other contexts.
reflection wrote:Based on my understanding, a few things that may give some insight:
Like other terms, the terms sankhara and vinnana are used quite widely in the suttas. They both have varying meanings depending on context. For example in some places we see vinnana as a synonym for mind. Now, in the first of the quotes you gave, the Buddha is speaking about the 5 aggregates and in the two others he is speaking about dependent origination, so since he is using the terms in different contexts, he does not necessarily mean the same thing.
Yes there are varying meanings depending on context. It may also have following three meanings: fabricators or fabricating processes or fabricated things. In the most general way perhaps sankhara can be understood as "thing upon which something else depends" (Ven. Nanavira). But, in the dependent origination the Buddha must have used the word with a specific meaning (bodily, verbal, and mental sankhara).
reflection wrote: Let me start with explaining my understanding of the dependent origination link, because this one is by far the most common in the suttas, so the most important to understand. First, dependent origination is about conditionality, but not necessarily instant conditionality. For example birth is a condition for death, but they don't happen at the same time. Then second, dependent origination sankhara is not all sankhara. It says ignorance leads to sankhara, so the sankhara being spoken about are those based on ignorance, which are not all sankhara. It speaks of those leading to birth ...
... So this is how sankhara leads to consciousness in terms of dependent origination. That's why the suttas say "beings are born of kamma".
... So sankhara here is sankhara that are based on ignorance, the unskillful kamma leading to birth of consciousness, birth of name and form, those are the sankhara in DO....
... In the five aggregates the meaning of sankhara is a bit wider as it naturally must include all sankhara, not just those based on ignorance ...

Thanks, reflection. But don't all sankhara (including five aggregates) directly or indirectly arise due to ignorance?
Also, if the sankhara in the dependent origination are to be understood as "Kamma" then the question is: how do these kamma sankhara give rise to such consciousness leading to birth? Does this question fall under Acinteyya?
reflection wrote: So when speaking of sankhara creating consciousness here, it speaks of how due to sense contact there arises consciousness in general. There is a process going on to turn an object via the respective sense, into contact, into consciousness. This process in itself is what the Buddha called a sankhara as well. An important part of this process is turning the attention towards the thing that one of conscious of and I think that's the main sankhara the Buddha is pointing to. But, this is not necessarily an unwholesome sankhara, not a rebirth producing sankhara.

Yes, I also like to understand it as a process, but I am not clear how this process works.
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reflection
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by reflection »

Hi,

In my understanding:
Yes there are varying meanings depending on context. It may also have following three meanings: fabricators or fabricating processes or fabricated things. In the most general way perhaps sankhara can be understood as "thing upon which something else depends" (Ven. Nanavira). But, in the dependent origination the Buddha must have used the word with a specific meaning (bodily, verbal, and mental sankhara).
For myself I usually translate it as 'activities' (mainly in context of the 5 aggregates). Later on I came across some translators using this terminology also and I think it is a useful one. In other words, it is something that is active, that moves, creates, wills, that does. Sankhara here being a collection of all sorts of things, but sharing the 'activity' aspect which we don't find in the other aggregates. For example, consciousness in itself is not 'active', it is not moving.
Thanks, reflection. But don't all sankhara (including five aggregates) directly or indirectly arise due to ignorance?
In a sense, yes, but it is indirectly. All aggregates are here because of ignorance in past lives. If there was no ignorance in past lives, we would be nibbana-ed and there would be no more aggregates. However, in dependent origination the link is directly from ignorance to sankhara. But ignorance does not lead directly to the birth/arising of aggregates. The important link between those is the acting on ignorance. If there theoretically would be only ignorance but no acts, no intentions, there is no kamma.

Only if ignorance actually is acted upon (which it naturally will be), it gives rise to kamma fabrications, it gives rise to the birth, the rearising of the aggregates. This acting upon ignorance (aka kamma) is how I see sankhara in context of dependent origination. And since intention/kamma is of central importance in the entire Dhamma, it's quite logical the Buddha wouldn't leave it out of dependent origination. Now I didn't know what would define a 'usual interpretation', but it seems to me the quote by Bhikkhu Bodhi says this 'usual interpretation' is saying the same as I'm saying. So perhaps you can find more there.
Also, if the sankhara in the dependent origination are to be understood as "Kamma" then the question is: how do these kamma sankhara give rise to such consciousness leading to birth? Does this question fall under Acinteyya?
Kamma, or intentions. How it roughly happens is at death there is no letting go because one still is attached to the six senses, there is still a sankhara based on sustenance/clinging (upadana). This sankhara, which is also based on other sankharas, initiates the new birth. Here you can combine the two life-to-life transitions of dependent origination into one to get the full picture. They basically describe the same process. Trying to understand this is not accinteyya, that would be for example to try and figure out exactly what kamma leads to what rebirth.
Yes, I also like to understand it as a process, but I am not clear how this process works.
So for clarity, now we're back to sankhara as one of the five aggregates, not sankhara in dependent origination. As I said, I think the most important sankhara in this process is the intention that turns towards a particular consciousness. In other words, the mind going out to for example, sounds. In meditation you can get a sense of this when sounds begin to intrude into awareness again after they were not noticed for a while. You see the mind is going after it; this is a sankhara. There is quite a famous story of Ajahn Chah being able to consciously decide whether he would hear sounds or not. With the body consciousness it can also be quite obvious; when pain arises, the mind often moves towards the pain. This is an activity, this is a sankhara. And it is an important one because it can be (but is not necessarily) based on attachment to the senses.

There are other sankhara in the process but these I personally think are of minor importance. For example, the feelings or images arising in the mind are created, are sankhara-ed. Same with other senses.



But we can try to get our head around it, but as I said, seeing things in meditation is more clear. The Buddha's words are like describing the taste of a banana; you can't recreate the taste by thinking about the description of it. At times contemplating these deep teachings may be useful, but I think it is at least just as fruitful to put these things aside and simply still the mind. And then to simply ask ourselves, what am I attached to? And if I die, how would I act upon that attachment?

Hope it creates some clarity. If not, don't break your brain over it. :D Samadhi is important in understanding sankhara:
"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:anjali:
chownah
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by chownah »

tiltbillings wrote:
SamKR wrote:
Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ
My question:
How do sankhara fabricate vinnana?
It depends upon what is meant by "fabricate." Ven Bodhi's "conditions" is far less problematic.
Do you have a link to Ven Bodhi's version of this?
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SamKR
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by SamKR »

Thanks, reflection.
"The individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness, but not insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, should approach an individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment and ask him: 'How should fabrications be regarded? How should they be investigated? How should they be seen with insight?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'Fabrications should be regarded in this way. Fabrications should be investigated in this way. Fabrications should be seen in this way with insight.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
:thumbsup:
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reflection
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by reflection »

You're welcome :anjali:
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

SamKR wrote:My question:
How do sankhara fabricate vinnana?
How do vinnana arise with the arising of sankhara?
viññāṇa arises at sense-contact e.g.
  • cakkhuñca paṭicca rūpe ca uppajjati cakkhuviññāṇaṃ. Tiṇṇaṃ saṅgati phasso.

    “Dependant on the eye and forms, eye-consciousness arises. With the union of these three is contact.” (SN. 12.44)
saṅkhāra has the function of making determinations (cetanā) with reference to the objects of sense e.g.
  • “Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? Chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā – rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

    “And what, monks, is volitional-cognition? Monks, there are these six collectives of determinations (cetanā); determinations of material-form, determinations of sound, determinations of smell, determinations of tastes, determinations of tactile sensations and determinations of mental phenomena. This, monks, is called volitional-cognition.” – SN. 22.56
Because of avijja, saṅkhāra pushes viññāṇa toward taṇhā and the pathway to dukkha.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

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DoubleA
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by DoubleA »

ancientbuddhism wrote:saṅkhāra has the function of making determinations (cetanā) with reference to the objects of sense e.g.
  • “Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? Chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā – rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

    “And what, monks, is volitional-cognition? Monks, there are these six collectives of determinations (cetanā); determinations of material-form, determinations of sound, determinations of smell, determinations of tastes, determinations of tactile sensations and determinations of mental phenomena. This, monks, is called volitional-cognition.” – SN. 22.56
Because of avijja, saṅkhāra pushes viññāṇa toward taṇhā and the pathway to dukkha.
This quote is out of context, which is obvious since it comes from SN. 22.56, which is the Samyutta (Collection) about the five aggregates rather than the Samyutta about causation (& dependent arising).

:pig:
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by Kenshou »

As if those two concepts are utterly unrelated.
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: Sankhara-paccaya Vinnanam: How?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

DoubleA wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:saṅkhāra has the function of making determinations (cetanā) with reference to the objects of sense e.g.
  • “Katame ca, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? Chayime, bhikkhave, cetanākāyā – rūpasañcetanā, saddasañcetanā, gandhasañcetanā, rasasañcetanā, phoṭṭhabbasañcetanā, dhammasañcetanā. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

    “And what, monks, is volitional-cognition? Monks, there are these six collectives of determinations (cetanā); determinations of material-form, determinations of sound, determinations of smell, determinations of tastes, determinations of tactile sensations and determinations of mental phenomena. This, monks, is called volitional-cognition.” – SN. 22.56
Because of avijja, saṅkhāra pushes viññāṇa toward taṇhā and the pathway to dukkha.
This quote is out of context, which is obvious since it comes from SN. 22.56, which is the Samyutta (Collection) about the five aggregates rather than the Samyutta about causation (& dependent arising).

:pig:
The theme of causality is not limited to the Nidānavagga of Saṃyutta Nikāya. Neither is the definition of its factors.

In the next line of the text in question:
  • “Phassasamudayā saṅkhārasamudayo; phassanirodhā saṅkhāranirodho.”

    “With the arising of contact is the arising of volitional-cognition. With the cessation of contact is the cessation of volitional cognition.”
And …
  • “Ye ca kho keci, bhikkhave, samaṇā vā brāhmaṇā vā evaṃ saṅkhāre abhiññāya, evaṃ saṅkhārasamudayaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ saṅkhāranirodhaṃ abhiññāya, evaṃ saṅkhāranirodhagāminiṃ paṭipadaṃ abhiññāya saṅkhārānaṃ nibbidā virāgā nirodhā anupādā vimuttā, te suvimuttā. Ye suvimuttā, te kevalino. Ye kevalino vaṭṭaṃ tesaṃ natthi paññāpanāya.

    “And whoever, monks, of those Brāhmins and contemplatives who have completely known volitional-cognition thus; who have completely known the arising of volitional-cognition thus, who have completely known the cessation of volitional-cognition thus and have completely known the way leading to the cessation of volitional-cognition thus; with disillusionment to volitional-cognition, dispassion towards it and its cessation are liberated through not taking-up with it - such are well liberated. Whoever is well liberated is perfected. Of such Perfected Ones, no cycle [of saṃsāra] can be recognised.”
Rise and fall, no cycle to be known. Sounds like causality.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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