With what do you experience this?

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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by kirk5a »

reflection wrote: Here it speaks of no perception of the four elements (ie body), and not saying there is no mind, unlike the first quote. So seems to me it is about a mental perception that is not nibbana itself, but a reflection upon nibbana, knowing how "this is peace etc."


The first quote is as I showed a mistranslation. When the 6 senses stop there is nothing left to be experienced.
Did you see this part?
MahāKoṭṭhita: 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact, is it the case that there is not anything else?'

Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'
This is "nibbana itself" as it specifically says. Where else would "nibbana itself" be described?
The Buddha: 'There is the case, Ānanda, where he would be percipient of this: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbāna."'
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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acinteyyo
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Post by acinteyyo »

and this:
AN 9.34 wrote:When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
It seems the Suttas suggest that the absence of something can be experienced.
The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience.
I guess same thing applies here. The absence may be realized through direct experience. I don't know whether we can speak of "experiencing" the absence of something or not. Maybe "not experiencing the presence" is a better term.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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acinteyyo wrote:and this:
AN 9.34 wrote:When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt.
It seems the Suttas suggest that the absence of something can be experienced.
The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience.
I guess same thing applies here. The absence may be realized through direct experience. I don't know whether we can speak of "experiencing" the absence of something or not. Maybe "not experiencing the presence" is a better term.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Do you realize they are talking about the absence of "the all"? Which is to be "abandoned" as the Buddha said.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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acinteyyo
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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Not right from the start but now that you mention it, yes...
SN 35.24 wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

Note:
[1] To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things.
note the note.
Is there anything you want to point out particularly kirk5a?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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acinteyyo wrote:Not right from the start but now that you mention it, yes...
SN 35.24 wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

Note:
[1] To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things.
note the note.
Is there anything you want to point out particularly kirk5a?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Yes, that "the all" is "subject to cessation" as SN 35.42 says. So then, clearly what is under discussion here is the "experience" of the cessation of "the all."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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reflection
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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kirk5a wrote:
reflection wrote: Here it speaks of no perception of the four elements (ie body), and not saying there is no mind, unlike the first quote. So seems to me it is about a mental perception that is not nibbana itself, but a reflection upon nibbana, knowing how "this is peace etc."


The first quote is as I showed a mistranslation. When the 6 senses stop there is nothing left to be experienced.
Did you see this part?
MahāKoṭṭhita: 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact, is it the case that there is not anything else?'

Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'
This is "nibbana itself" as it specifically says. Where else would "nibbana itself" be described?
The Buddha: 'There is the case, Ānanda, where he would be percipient of this: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbāna."'
Hi kirk,

The sutta also says the same thing about there being something (to be aware of):
MahāKoṭṭhita: 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?'

Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'
So this sutta is about how to talk about things, not what there actually is or isn't. To quote Sariputta on why not to speak like this: "one is objectifying the non-objectified." So Sariputta asked not to talk like this so "there is nothing" can't be misunderstood as if nibbana is a "there"; as if there is a place or reality beyond the six senses, 'where' nothing is. So it is about how to speak about it conceptually to not confuse others or ourselves. It is not about what actually is or isn't. The funny thing is, this objectifying he was warning us for is exactly what happens when taking such quotes to imply something metaphysical.

But Sariputta did it himself when he said "where there is nothing felt". (AN 9.34) So how to speak about it I would say depends on context and who we're speaking to. I think Sariputta was wise enough to distinguish to who he could relate in which ways.


The second quote is not incompatible with my view that one can reflect upon nibbana even if it can not be experienced. Since perception itself is fabricated, you can't percieve "the resolution (stilling?) of all fabrications". You can however read it as "he is percipient of this: nibbana is peaceful." instead of "he is percipient of nibbana". Here my suggested reading is a contemplation about nibbana:
And what, Ananda, is contemplation of detachment? Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree, or to a lonely place, contemplates thus: 'This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substratum of becoming, the extinction of craving, detachment, Nibbana.' This, Ananda, is called contemplation of detachment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html
:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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reflection wrote:The funny thing is, this objectifying he was warning us for is exactly what happens when taking such quotes to imply something metaphysical.

But Sariputta did it himself when he said "where there is nothing felt". (AN 9.34) So how to speak about it I would say depends on context and who we're speaking to. I think Sariputta was wise enough to distinguish to who he could relate in which ways.
Seriously, you're suggesting Ven. Sariputta himself "objectified non-objectification" when he said that? Surely you aren't going to accuse the Buddha of fault in saying
Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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reflection
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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kirk5a wrote:
reflection wrote:The funny thing is, this objectifying he was warning us for is exactly what happens when taking such quotes to imply something metaphysical.

But Sariputta did it himself when he said "where there is nothing felt". (AN 9.34) So how to speak about it I would say depends on context and who we're speaking to. I think Sariputta was wise enough to distinguish to who he could relate in which ways.
Seriously, you're suggesting Ven. Sariputta himself "objectified non-objectification" when he said that? Surely you aren't going to accuse the Buddha of fault in saying
Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I'm not saying it is a fault. I'm saying how wise teachers would speak seems to me to depend on context. At times the Buddha spoke in terms of "I", at other times he said it is a conceit to think in terms of "I". So using the word "I" is a way of speaking to get a message across. It is not implying some existence of the "I".

"Where there is" is similar. It is a way of speaking but there is no place 'where' there is.

By saying not to objectify the not-objectified, Sariputta was warning us not to take the message as the reality, or speaking in such a way that could suggest something that is not meant. That's why he said "'Don't say that, my friend.'" instead of "That is not true, my friend". It's all about skillful use of words, not about reality itself. At one time certain words may be skillful, at other times other words may be skillful.

:namaste:
Last edited by reflection on Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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acinteyyo
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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kirk5a wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:Not right from the start but now that you mention it, yes...
SN 35.24 wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

Note:
[1] To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things.
note the note.
Is there anything you want to point out particularly kirk5a?

best wishes, acinteyyo
Yes, that "the all" is "subject to cessation" as SN 35.42 says. So then, clearly what is under discussion here is the "experience" of the cessation of "the all."
And that actually is what I meant when I said that I think the suttas suggest that the absence (cessation) of "the world", "the all" can be "experienced".
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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reflection wrote: I'm not saying it is a fault. I'm saying how wise teachers would speak seems to me to depend on context. At times the Buddha spoke in terms of "I", at other times he said it is a conceit to think in terms of "I". So using the word "I" is a way of speaking to get a message across. It is not implying some existence of the "I".

"Where there is" is similar. It is a way of speaking but there is no place 'where' there is.

By saying not to objectify the not-objectified, Sariputta was warning us not to take the message as the reality, or speaking in such a way that could suggest something that is not meant. That's why he said "Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'" instead of "That is not true, my friend". It's all about skillful use of words, not about reality itself. At one time certain words may be skillful, at other times other words may be skillful.

:namaste:
This part is not about the skillful use of words.
With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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reflection wrote:The second quote is not incompatible with my view that one can reflect upon nibbana even if it can not be experienced. Since perception itself is fabricated, you can't percieve "the resolution (stilling?) of all fabrications". You can however read it as "he is percipient of this: nibbana is peaceful." instead of "he is percipient of nibbana".
No you can't read it that way.
The Buddha: 'There is the case, Ānanda, where he would be percipient of this: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbāna."'

— AN 10.6

[Ānanda puts the same question to Sāriputta, who responds that he himself once had experienced such a concentration.]

Ānanda: 'But what were you percipient of at that time?'

Sāriputta: '"The stopping of becoming — nibbāna — the stopping of becoming — nibbāna": One perception arose in me as another perception stopped. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame stops, even so, "The stopping of becoming — nibbāna — the stopping of becoming — nibbāna": One perception arose in me as another one stopped. I was percipient at that time of "the stopping of becoming — nibbāna."'
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote: I accept that you do not agree with my views as expressed but I want to say that in my view what I have said does address the issues in the portion of AN 10.6. It asks, "in what way.......have neither the PERCEPTION of earth...water....etc.....and yet he would STILL BE PERCIPIENT. I maintain that what I have described does in fact represent a state of mind that would do that.......and......to depart from the worldly side of this and to speak to the more noble aspects I am of the view that all the rest (resolution of fabrications, relinquishing of acquisitions, etc.) comes along too.
chownah
It says
where the eye [vision] stops and the perception [label] of form fade
I don't understand what point you are making......but I'll just say that the eyes arises from a worldly standpoint when the body is differentiated based on the different types of sensations experienced and when that differentiation ceases it can be said that the eye stops but it doesn't mean that sensations stop, only that it is not differentiated into components I.e. the body is not differentiated into parts and sensation is not differentiated into kinds, there is no longer a pairing of body part with sensation and no consciousness arises with respect to differentiation but this does not necessarily mean that a coma results. I don't know but it might be that another kind of consciousness arises but there is no need to hypothesize about this and to do so is probably a case of objectifying the non-objectified......when you get to the point of the stopping of the senses there is no basis for talking about objects at all.
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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chownah wrote: I don't understand what point you are making......but I'll just say that the eyes arises from a worldly standpoint when the body is differentiated based on the different types of sensations experienced and when that differentiation ceases it can be said that the eye stops but it doesn't mean that sensations stop, only that it is not differentiated into components
As quoted earlier: nibbana - "where there is nothing felt"

You are clearly not talking about a state in which nothing is felt.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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kirk5a wrote: This part is not about the skillful use of words.
With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
But it is not implying some perception either. If there are no senses, if there is no mind, of course you can't objectify things anymore.
(also don't ignore the word "remainderless".. but that aside)

kirk5a wrote: No you can't read it that way.
One perception arose in me as another one stopped. I was percipient at that time of "the stopping of becoming — nibbāna."'
Not in venerable Thanissaro's translations you can't. But fortunately you can in the translation of others.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Nyanatiloka translate it as "I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’” That's something entirely different than what Thanissaro is implying. You can have "the cessation of existence is nibbana" as a perception but not nibbana itself. In other words, you can perceive an understanding of the third noble truth.

I have not enough Pali knowledge to say Thanissaro's translation is linguistically wrong or if it is a choice he made. But either way it is one that doesn't make sense because nibbana is also the end of perception. (Talking about the final nibbana which is the end of existence)

:anjali:
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kirk5a
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Re: With what do you experience this?

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reflection wrote: Not in venerable Thanissaro's translations you can't. But fortunately you can in the translation of others.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Nyanatiloka translate it as "I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’” That's something entirely different than what Thanissaro is implying. You can have "the cessation of existence is nibbana" as a perception but not nibbana itself. In other words, you can perceive an understanding of the third noble truth.

I have not enough Pali knowledge to say Thanissaro's translation is linguistically wrong or if it is a choice he made. But either way it is one that doesn't make sense because nibbana s also the end of perception. (Talking about the aspect of nibbana that is cessation of existence, not the end of craving)

:anjali:
How about we both admit we haven't personally attained the state in question, and therefore our own personal words about it are mere guessing?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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