With what do you experience this?

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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:01 pm

kirk5a wrote:
reflection wrote:Here it speaks of no perception of the four elements (ie body), and not saying there is no mind, unlike the first quote. So seems to me it is about a mental perception that is not nibbana itself, but a reflection upon nibbana, knowing how "this is peace etc."


The first quote is as I showed a mistranslation. When the 6 senses stop there is nothing left to be experienced.

Did you see this part?
MahāKoṭṭhita: 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact, is it the case that there is not anything else?'

Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'

This is "nibbana itself" as it specifically says. Where else would "nibbana itself" be described?
The Buddha: 'There is the case, Ānanda, where he would be percipient of this: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbāna."'

Hi kirk,

The sutta also says the same thing about there being something (to be aware of):
MahāKoṭṭhita: 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six spheres of contact [vision, hearing, smell, taste, touch, & intellection] is it the case that there is anything else?'

Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'


So this sutta is about how to talk about things, not what there actually is or isn't. To quote Sariputta on why not to speak like this: "one is objectifying the non-objectified." So Sariputta asked not to talk like this so "there is nothing" can't be misunderstood as if nibbana is a "there"; as if there is a place or reality beyond the six senses, 'where' nothing is. So it is about how to speak about it conceptually to not confuse others or ourselves. It is not about what actually is or isn't. The funny thing is, this objectifying he was warning us for is exactly what happens when taking such quotes to imply something metaphysical.

But Sariputta did it himself when he said "where there is nothing felt". (AN 9.34) So how to speak about it I would say depends on context and who we're speaking to. I think Sariputta was wise enough to distinguish to who he could relate in which ways.


The second quote is not incompatible with my view that one can reflect upon nibbana even if it can not be experienced. Since perception itself is fabricated, you can't percieve "the resolution (stilling?) of all fabrications". You can however read it as "he is percipient of this: nibbana is peaceful." instead of "he is percipient of nibbana". Here my suggested reading is a contemplation about nibbana:

And what, Ananda, is contemplation of detachment? Herein, Ananda, a monk having gone to the forest, or to the foot of a tree, or to a lonely place, contemplates thus: 'This is peaceful, this is sublime, namely, the stilling of all conditioned things, the giving up of all substratum of becoming, the extinction of craving, detachment, Nibbana.' This, Ananda, is called contemplation of detachment.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html


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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:12 pm

reflection wrote:The funny thing is, this objectifying he was warning us for is exactly what happens when taking such quotes to imply something metaphysical.

But Sariputta did it himself when he said "where there is nothing felt". (AN 9.34) So how to speak about it I would say depends on context and who we're speaking to. I think Sariputta was wise enough to distinguish to who he could relate in which ways.

Seriously, you're suggesting Ven. Sariputta himself "objectified non-objectification" when he said that? Surely you aren't going to accuse the Buddha of fault in saying
Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:17 pm

kirk5a wrote:
reflection wrote:The funny thing is, this objectifying he was warning us for is exactly what happens when taking such quotes to imply something metaphysical.

But Sariputta did it himself when he said "where there is nothing felt". (AN 9.34) So how to speak about it I would say depends on context and who we're speaking to. I think Sariputta was wise enough to distinguish to who he could relate in which ways.

Seriously, you're suggesting Ven. Sariputta himself "objectified non-objectification" when he said that? Surely you aren't going to accuse the Buddha of fault in saying
Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I'm not saying it is a fault. I'm saying how wise teachers would speak seems to me to depend on context. At times the Buddha spoke in terms of "I", at other times he said it is a conceit to think in terms of "I". So using the word "I" is a way of speaking to get a message across. It is not implying some existence of the "I".

"Where there is" is similar. It is a way of speaking but there is no place 'where' there is.

By saying not to objectify the not-objectified, Sariputta was warning us not to take the message as the reality, or speaking in such a way that could suggest something that is not meant. That's why he said "'Don't say that, my friend.'" instead of "That is not true, my friend". It's all about skillful use of words, not about reality itself. At one time certain words may be skillful, at other times other words may be skillful.

:namaste:
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby acinteyyo » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:23 pm

kirk5a wrote:
acinteyyo wrote:Not right from the start but now that you mention it, yes...
SN 35.24 wrote:"Monks, I will teach you the All as a phenomenon to be abandoned. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "And which All is a phenomenon to be abandoned? The eye is to be abandoned. [1] Forms are to be abandoned. Consciousness at the eye is to be abandoned. Contact at the eye is to be abandoned. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the eye — experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain — that too is to be abandoned.

Note:
[1] To abandon the eye, etc., here means to abandon passion and desire for these things.

note the note.
Is there anything you want to point out particularly kirk5a?

best wishes, acinteyyo

Yes, that "the all" is "subject to cessation" as SN 35.42 says. So then, clearly what is under discussion here is the "experience" of the cessation of "the all."

And that actually is what I meant when I said that I think the suttas suggest that the absence (cessation) of "the world", "the all" can be "experienced".
Pubbe cāhaṃ bhikkhave, etarahi ca dukkhañceva paññāpemi, dukkhassa ca nirodhaṃ. (M.22)
Both formerly, monks, and now, it is just suffering that I make known and the ending of suffering.
Pathabyā ekarajjena, saggassa gamanena vā sabbalokādhipaccena, sotāpattiphalaṃ varaṃ. (Dhp 178)
Sole dominion over the earth, going to heaven or lordship over all worlds: the fruit of stream-entry excels them.

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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:34 pm

reflection wrote:I'm not saying it is a fault. I'm saying how wise teachers would speak seems to me to depend on context. At times the Buddha spoke in terms of "I", at other times he said it is a conceit to think in terms of "I". So using the word "I" is a way of speaking to get a message across. It is not implying some existence of the "I".

"Where there is" is similar. It is a way of speaking but there is no place 'where' there is.

By saying not to objectify the not-objectified, Sariputta was warning us not to take the message as the reality, or speaking in such a way that could suggest something that is not meant. That's why he said "Sāriputta: 'Don't say that, my friend.'" instead of "That is not true, my friend". It's all about skillful use of words, not about reality itself. At one time certain words may be skillful, at other times other words may be skillful.

:namaste:

This part is not about the skillful use of words.
With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:41 pm

reflection wrote:The second quote is not incompatible with my view that one can reflect upon nibbana even if it can not be experienced. Since perception itself is fabricated, you can't percieve "the resolution (stilling?) of all fabrications". You can however read it as "he is percipient of this: nibbana is peaceful." instead of "he is percipient of nibbana".

No you can't read it that way.
The Buddha: 'There is the case, Ānanda, where he would be percipient of this: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; nibbāna."'

— AN 10.6

[Ānanda puts the same question to Sāriputta, who responds that he himself once had experienced such a concentration.]

Ānanda: 'But what were you percipient of at that time?'

Sāriputta: '"The stopping of becoming — nibbāna — the stopping of becoming — nibbāna": One perception arose in me as another perception stopped. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame stops, even so, "The stopping of becoming — nibbāna — the stopping of becoming — nibbāna": One perception arose in me as another one stopped. I was percipient at that time of "the stopping of becoming — nibbāna."'
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby chownah » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:50 pm

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:I accept that you do not agree with my views as expressed but I want to say that in my view what I have said does address the issues in the portion of AN 10.6. It asks, "in what way.......have neither the PERCEPTION of earth...water....etc.....and yet he would STILL BE PERCIPIENT. I maintain that what I have described does in fact represent a state of mind that would do that.......and......to depart from the worldly side of this and to speak to the more noble aspects I am of the view that all the rest (resolution of fabrications, relinquishing of acquisitions, etc.) comes along too.
chownah

It says
where the eye [vision] stops and the perception [label] of form fade

I don't understand what point you are making......but I'll just say that the eyes arises from a worldly standpoint when the body is differentiated based on the different types of sensations experienced and when that differentiation ceases it can be said that the eye stops but it doesn't mean that sensations stop, only that it is not differentiated into components I.e. the body is not differentiated into parts and sensation is not differentiated into kinds, there is no longer a pairing of body part with sensation and no consciousness arises with respect to differentiation but this does not necessarily mean that a coma results. I don't know but it might be that another kind of consciousness arises but there is no need to hypothesize about this and to do so is probably a case of objectifying the non-objectified......when you get to the point of the stopping of the senses there is no basis for talking about objects at all.
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:11 pm

chownah wrote:I don't understand what point you are making......but I'll just say that the eyes arises from a worldly standpoint when the body is differentiated based on the different types of sensations experienced and when that differentiation ceases it can be said that the eye stops but it doesn't mean that sensations stop, only that it is not differentiated into components

As quoted earlier: nibbana - "where there is nothing felt"

You are clearly not talking about a state in which nothing is felt.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:15 pm

kirk5a wrote:This part is not about the skillful use of words.
With the remainderless fading & stopping of the six contact-media, there comes to be the stopping, the allaying of objectification.

But it is not implying some perception either. If there are no senses, if there is no mind, of course you can't objectify things anymore.
(also don't ignore the word "remainderless".. but that aside)


kirk5a wrote:No you can't read it that way.
One perception arose in me as another one stopped. I was percipient at that time of "the stopping of becoming — nibbāna."'

Not in venerable Thanissaro's translations you can't. But fortunately you can in the translation of others.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Nyanatiloka translate it as "I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’” That's something entirely different than what Thanissaro is implying. You can have "the cessation of existence is nibbana" as a perception but not nibbana itself. In other words, you can perceive an understanding of the third noble truth.

I have not enough Pali knowledge to say Thanissaro's translation is linguistically wrong or if it is a choice he made. But either way it is one that doesn't make sense because nibbana is also the end of perception. (Talking about the final nibbana which is the end of existence)

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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby kirk5a » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:31 pm

reflection wrote:Not in venerable Thanissaro's translations you can't. But fortunately you can in the translation of others.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's and Nyanatiloka translate it as "I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’” That's something entirely different than what Thanissaro is implying. You can have "the cessation of existence is nibbana" as a perception but not nibbana itself. In other words, you can perceive an understanding of the third noble truth.

I have not enough Pali knowledge to say Thanissaro's translation is linguistically wrong or if it is a choice he made. But either way it is one that doesn't make sense because nibbana s also the end of perception. (Talking about the aspect of nibbana that is cessation of existence, not the end of craving)

:anjali:

How about we both admit we haven't personally attained the state in question, and therefore our own personal words about it are mere guessing?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby santa100 » Wed Jul 24, 2013 4:40 pm

kirk5a wrote:How about we both admit we haven't personally attained the state in question, and therefore our own personal words about it are mere guessing?


Good point there. Ven. Bodhi's note in AN 10.6 clarified:
This attainment is not the fruition that occurs for a few moments immediately following the path, but a special meditative state accessible only to those who have already attained one of the four paths and its subsequent fruition. The attainment, as shown in this sutta, does not take any of the mundane, conditioned meditation objects as its support; its support is the unconditioned nibbana, experienced directly and immediately. The commentaries hold that this attainment is graded as fourfold according to the four stages of realization (from stream-entry to arahantship).
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby equilibrium » Wed Jul 24, 2013 6:06 pm

SarathW wrote:With what do you experience this?

Supra-mundane consciousness.
If there are no six senses how do you experience it?

Who says there are no six senses?.....Is it not true if one were to experience it, one is that of a deluded being?.....a deluded being has senses does he/she not? so if one who has experienced it, does that mean all perception stops?.....Buddha had no perception?.....impossible!

Something is missing isn't there?.....knowing!

(edit: mind replaced by "Supra-mundane")
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:29 am

Thank you all for your replies.
Is this experience is something similar to Nirodha-samāpatti?
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:52 am

kirk5a wrote:
chownah wrote:I don't understand what point you are making......but I'll just say that the eyes arises from a worldly standpoint when the body is differentiated based on the different types of sensations experienced and when that differentiation ceases it can be said that the eye stops but it doesn't mean that sensations stop, only that it is not differentiated into components

As quoted earlier: nibbana - "where there is nothing felt"

You are clearly not talking about a state in which nothing is felt.

If something is felt as a result of the DO concept of Feeling then I guess I am in that sense saying that nothing is felt in that in my view any word, concept, idea, etc. is an objectified thing which only results from differentiation of body/sensation/experience and so with the ceasing of differentiations there is a ceasing of the Feelings which arise through differentiation. Just as I said with consciousness, there may be some different kind of feeling which arises but again this is probably objectifying the un-objectified I guess and with the stopping of the senses there is no basis for talking about objects at all.

Also, I am not trying to say that nibbana follows immediately upon stoping of the senses....I.e. I am not saying that on Friday afternoon at 3:14 the senses stopped and nibanna was entered. My view is that the stopping of the senses happens incrementally and it may take years from the first hint of this happening to full and complete stopping and that one probably needs to master the technique to accomplish this before all of the knowledge can be extracted from the experience and it can proceed to its fullest manifestation......BUT I MAY VERY WELL BE WRONG ABOUT THIS and really, I think that the cessation of the six senses is profound enough that we need not worry too much about the mechanics of what follows at least not until we get there.....I guess....
chownah
P.S. I just took a look at the OP and the first line is "The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience." In my view all descriptions are fabricated objects that rely on objectification for their formulation....in that sense it would be clearly be impossible to describe a state (the dimension of non-objectification for example) where no objects exist.
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:11 am

Hi all
Thanks for your valuable input.
I have a question re following passage. I thought it is better to include here rather than raising a new question.

===========================
Other passages mention a consciousness in this freedom — "without feature or surface, without end, luminous all around" — lying outside of time and space, experienced when the six sense spheres stop functioning (MN 49). In this it differs from the consciousness-khandha, which depends on the six sense spheres and can be described in such terms as near or far, past, present, or future. Consciousness without feature is thus the awareness of Awakening. And the freedom of this awareness carries over even when the awakened person returns to ordinary consciousness. As the Buddha said of himself:
"Freed, dissociated, & released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness. Freed, dissociated, & released from feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness... birth... aging... death... suffering & stress... defilement, the Tathagata dwells with unrestricted awareness."
— AN 10.81

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... andha.html

=====================
My questions:
a)How consciousness be luminous all around if it hasn’t got features?
b)How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?
C) Is Ven. Thanissaaro talking here about a living Arahant?
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby equilibrium » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:10 pm

SarathW wrote:a)How consciousness be luminous all around if it hasn’t got features?
b)How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?
C) Is Ven. Thanissaaro talking here about a living Arahant?

a) Just like the sun, it is constantly shining, without obstructions therefore luminous all round.

b) Can we be conscious of something without consciousness? If there is something to be experienced then without perception, it cannot be perceived. Can a sound be heard if there is no ear/consciousness?.....yet there is a sound. Awareness? So Nibbana can be experienced through awareness. Yet under MN 49 noted clearly beyond description.....beyond range:
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This is termed the All. Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his assertion, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why is that? Because it lies beyond range."
Has to be experienced by the seeker.

c) (Nibbana as living experience by Lily de Silva):
The simile used in the Mahaa Assapura Sutta to describe the enlightenment experience of the arahant is that of a pond of crystal-clear water where a man standing on its bank sees the pebbles, shells, etc., in its bed and shoals of fish swimming in the water. But the Buddha's enlightenment experience is like the panoramic view one gets from the summit of a mountain, and this is exactly the imagery Mahaabrahmaa uses to describe the Buddha's enlightenment experience.

The other facets of the enlightenment experience may be parts of the spiritual panorama seen in different directions from the vantage point of reality. Whatever the pattern may be, an arahant's enlightenment is a much less significant, much less dramatic experience than that of the Buddha, which is so profound, multifaceted, rich, and unique.

Reality check.....even an arahant here is still under delusion.....yet enough to escape samsara.
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby kirk5a » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:39 pm

equilibrium wrote:Reality check.....even an arahant here is still under delusion

Not true.
And what is the Unbinding property with fuel remaining? There is the case where a monk is an arahant whose fermentations have ended, who has reached fulfillment, finished the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, ended the fetter of becoming, and is released through right gnosis. His five sense faculties still remain and, owing to their being intact, he is cognizant of the agreeable & the disagreeable, and is sensitive to pleasure & pain. His ending of passion, aversion, & delusion is termed the Unbinding property with fuel remaining.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby equilibrium » Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:00 pm

kirk5a wrote:Not true.

yes & no.....it depends on the point of reference.

Well, like anything else, for anything to exist it must depend on something else.....a point of reference.
Like a sun that shines but if there are no walls, how can there be any shadows cast?.....it does not land.

Just like any tree, there are many branches. Without the branches, the tree cannot exist.....when we zoom out of the branch, we see other branches.....yet they all belong to the same tree.

So the question is do we see only a branch and ignore the tree?.....or.....do we accept branches as part of a tree?
More importantly.....are we even "aware" that there is a tree to begin with?
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby equilibrium » Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:55 pm

SarathW wrote:b) How consciousness can be experienced if there is no six sense spheres?

Well this is what it sounds like when it happens as per "Mind like fire unbound" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
The mind at this point attains Deathlessness, although there is no sense of 'I' in the attainment. There is simply the realization, 'There is this.' From this point onward the mind experiences mental & physical phenomena with a sense of being dissociated from them. One simile for this state is that of a hide removed from the carcass of a cow: Even if the hide is then placed back on the cow, one cannot say that it is attached as before, because the connective tissues that once held the hide to the carcass — in other words, passion & desire — have all been cut (by the knife of discernment). The person who has attained the goal — called a Tathāgata in some contexts, an arahant in others — thus lives out the remainder of his/her life in the world, but independent of it.
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Re: With what do you experience this?

Postby mirco » Thu Aug 15, 2013 7:47 pm

SarathW wrote:The dimension of non-objectification, although it may not be described, may be realized through direct experience.

"Monks, that dimension should be experienced where the eye [vision] stops and the perception [label] of form fades. That dimension should be experienced where the ear stops and the perception of sound fades... where the nose stops and the perception of aroma fades... where the tongue stops and the perception of flavor fades... where the body stops and the perception of tactile sensation fades... where the intellect stops and the perception of idea/phenomenon fades: That dimension should be experienced."— SN 35.116

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-1.html

=======================================


If there are no six senses how do you experience it?


MN43
11. "Friend, with what does one understand a state that can be known?"
"Friend, one understands a state that can be known with the eye of wisdom."


Comment: That means the clear mind that doesn’t have any craving in it; the pure mind. That’s how you really recognize these states for what they are. You kind of guess when you’re thinking about them: "Maybe I’m in that state, maybe I’m not." But when you’re in that state and you cognize it, right at that moment, you don’t need to verbalize: "I’m in the realm of this or that"; you know it, and you see it with this pure mind.
/Study/Talks/Transcripts/MN-043
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