Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

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Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:36 am

It appears that Anagamis and some Jhana meditators also can attain Nirodha-samapatti.
My understanding is that, only Arahant can experience this state.

This question is based on:
==================================
Nirodha-samāpatti: 'attainment of ceasing' S. XIV, 11, also called saññā-vedayita-nirodha, ceasing of feeling and perception', is the temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity, following immediately upon the semi-conscious state called 'sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception' see: jhāna. The absolutely necessary pre-conditions to its attainment are said to be perfect mastery of all the 8 absorptions jhāna as well as the previous attainment of Anāgāmi or Arahatship see: ariya-puggala
According to Vis.M XXIII, the entering into this state takes place in the following way: by means of mental tranquillity samatha and insight vipassanā one has to pass through all the 8 absorptions one after the other up to the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception and then one has to bring this state to an end. If, namely, according to the Vis.M, the disciple Anāgāmi or Arahat passes through the absorption merely by means of tranquillity, i.e. concentration, he will only attain the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and then come to a standstill; if, on the other hand, he proceeds only with insight, he will reach the fruition phala of Anāgāmi or Arahatship. He, however, who by means of both abilities has risen from absorption to absorption and, having made the necessary preparations, brings the sphere of neither-perception-nor-non-perception to an end, such a one reaches the state of ceasing. Whilst the disciple is passing through the 8 absorptions, he each time emerges from the absorption attained, and regards with his insight all the mental phenomena constituting that special absorption, as impermanent, miserable and impersonal. Then he again enters the next higher absorption, and thus, after each absorption practising insight, he at last reaches the state of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, and thereafter the full ceasing. This state, according to the Com., may last for 7 days or even longer. Immediately at the rising from this state, however, there arises in the Anāgāmi the fruition of Anāgāmiship anāgāmi-phala in the Arahat the fruition of Arahatship arahatta-phala.
With regard to the difference existing between the Bhikkhu abiding in this state of ceasing on the one hand, and a dead person on the other hand, M 43 says:;In him who is dead, and whose life has come to an end, the bodily in-and-outbreathing, verbal thought-conception and discursive thinking, and mental functions see: sankhāra 2 have become suspended and come to a standstill, life is exhausted, the vital heat extinguished, the abilities are destroyed. Also in the Bhikkhu who has reached 'ceasing of perception and feeling' saññā-vedayita-nirodha the bodily, verbal and mental functions have been suspended and come to a standstill, but life is not exhausted, the vital heat not extinguished, and the abilities are not destroyed
For details, see Vis.M XXIII; for texts see: path 206.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_n.htm
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:30 am

I think you have misread the first paragraph. It is saying that you must be anagami or arahant and the jannas
alone are not enough. I really don't see the point for a description of a process or attainment which is only available to people who don't need a description of the process in that it is guaranteed that anagrami will become arahants and that arahants will gain fruition as there is no other options for them.......so really what is the point?, unless the point is just being curious about this subject which is of course a good reason to pursue it.

Also, this is commentarial stuff so do be advised that it may be difficult (some people say impossible) to reconcile it with the Suttas.
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:40 am

The point is that if it is accessible to non aryas, it could mean that there is yet another route to nibbana.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:06 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:The point is that if it is accessible to non aryas, it could mean that there is yet another route to nibbana.

Is there something in the text which indicates it is supposed to be accessible to non aryas? I think it says anagrams and arahant only.
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:32 am

Thanks Chownah
Can you give me the Sutta reference which says that both Anagami and Arahant can attain Nirodha Samapatti state.
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby Modus.Ponens » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:35 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Chownah
Can you give me the Sutta reference which says that both Anagami and Arahant can attain Nirodha Samapatti state.


That's the problem. I've seen it argued that it can be accessib le to non aryas, based on the suttas. But I'm not knowledgeable enough to say either way. I hope people who know well the suttas say something.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:03 am

In SN 41.6 ( http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html ), Citta the householder used to abide in cessation attainment as a non-returner. Ven. Bodhi notes from "Connected Discourses":
..Spk explains that Citta used to abide in cessation [Spk-pt: as a nonreturner] and thus he raised the question to ask about the formations that are the basis for cessation..
The attainment of cessation, a meditative state in which mind and all mental functions stop. It is said to be accessible only to arahants and nonreturners who have mastered the eight attainments of samadhi. For a detailed treatment according to the commentarial method, see Vism 702–9 (Ppn 23:16–52). Spk says Citta had asked this question to find out if the monk was familiar with the attainment.
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 25, 2013 4:20 am

Thanks for the link Santa.
Great to read it.
It is bit similar to Culavedalla Sutta.
SN41.6 does not say that Citta was a Nonreturner though.
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby chownah » Thu Jul 25, 2013 7:22 am

SarathW wrote:Thanks Chownah
Can you give me the Sutta reference which says that both Anagami and Arahant can attain Nirodha Samapatti state.

I don't know of any sutta that mentions nirodha samapatti.
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:23 pm

SarathW wrote:Thanks for the link Santa.
Great to read it.
It is bit similar to Culavedalla Sutta.
SN41.6 does not say that Citta was a Nonreturner though.


Right, that bit of info. comes from the commentary. So I guess the sure-fire way is to attain non-return first and see it for ourselves... :smile:
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby SarathW » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:52 pm

Agree :)
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Re: Can non Arahants attain Nirodha-samāpatti?

Postby SarathW » Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:59 am

Found some info re my OP:

Nirodhasamàpatti—Lit., ‘attainment to cessation’.
It is so called because during this period the stream
of consciousness temporarily ceases to flow. Mind is
suspended, but vitality persists.
It is only an Anàgàmi or an Arahant who has
developed the Råpa and Aråpa Jhànas who can
attain to this supreme state of ecstasy.
When such a person wishes to attain to Nirodhasamàpatti,
he first attains to the first jhàna and,
emerging from which, he meditates on the transiency,
sorrowfulness, and soullessness of conditioned
states found in that particular jhàna. Likewise,

he attains, in order, to the remaining jhànas and
meditates in the same way until the Aråpa-Jhàna of
‘Nothingness’.
Emerging from this jhàna, he makes the following
four resolutions:—
(i) that his fourfold requisites be not destroyed,
(ii) that he should arise in time when his services
are needed by the Sangha, (iii) that he should
arise in time when he is summoned by the
Buddha, (iv) whether he would live for more
than seven days from that moment.
He has to think of his age-limit as this ecstatic
state normally extends to seven days.
After making these resolutions, he attains to the
last Aråpajhàna of ‘Neither Perception nor Non-
Perception’ and remains in that state for two javana
thought-moments. Immediately after he attains to
Nirodha-samàpatti when his stream of consciousness
is temporarily suspended. After seven days he
emerges from this state and experiences for a single
moment an Anàgàmi Phala consciousness in the
case of an Anàgàmi, or an Arahant Phala consciousness
in the case of an Arahant. Thereafter arises the
Bhavaïga citta.
For details see Visuddhimagga.
†‡†
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