Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

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SarathW
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Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:47 am

I am reading the following paragraph and have the following questions.
a) Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not mentioned here?
b) Are we talking here about the Nirodha-samapatti?
===================================
Once the mind can detach itself from the pleasure & equanimity offered by jhāna, it can be inclined toward that which transcends jhāna — the unconditioned quality of deathlessness.
'There is the case, Ānanda, where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, empty, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines it to the phenomenon [dhamma] of deathlessness: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; Unbinding."
'Staying right there, he reaches the ending of effluents. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this very Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters* — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. [Similarly with the other levels of jhāna up through the dimension of nothingness.]'
— MN 64
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... e/2-3.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby pegembara » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:04 am

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, [perceiving,] 'There is nothing,' Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of nothingness. Whatever qualities there are in the dimension of nothingness — the perception of the dimension of nothingness, singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of nothingness, Sariputta entered & remained in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.[4]

"Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered & remained in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended. He emerged mindfully from that attainment. On emerging mindfully from that attainment, he regarded the past qualities that had ceased & changed: 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is no further escape,' and pursuing it there really wasn't for him.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


Nirodha is the "9th jhana" ( cessation of feeling & perception).

Once the mind can detach itself from the pleasure & equanimity offered by jhāna, it can be inclined toward that which transcends jhāna — the unconditioned quality of deathlessness.
'There is the case, Ānanda, where a monk... enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, & consciousness as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, empty, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines it to the phenomenon [dhamma] of deathlessness: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishing of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; stopping; Unbinding."
'Staying right there, he reaches the ending of effluents. Or, if not, then — through this very Dhamma-passion, this very Dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five Fetters* — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world. [Similarly with the other levels of jhāna up through the dimension of nothingness.]'
— MN 64


In 8th and 9th jhana the mind is shut down. Only after emerging the mind can ferret things out, turns away and incline towards nibbana.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

SarathW
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:38 am

Hi Pegembara
Your reply is very helpful. :)
The way I understand Buddha learned the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception from Udaka Arama.
Buddha is the first person to experience the cessation of feeling & perception.
Am I correct?

Do you think non Ariyas (Jhana meditators) can attain the cessation of feeling & perception?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

pegembara
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby pegembara » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:14 am

I am not able to answer. Perhaps someone else can.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

chownah
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby chownah » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:47 am

SarathW wrote:Hi Pegembara
Your reply is very helpful. :)
The way I understand Buddha learned the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception from Udaka Arama.
Buddha is the first person to experience the cessation of feeling & perception.
Am I correct?

Do you think non Ariyas (Jhana meditators) can attain the cessation of feeling & perception?

If cessation of feeling and perception is the 9th jhana then I guess you would have to be a jhana meditator to attain it by definition.
Also, I think that it is likely that someone who has attained all the jhanas could very easily attain ariyahood unless there was some compelling reason why they were avoiding ariyahood.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Mon Jul 29, 2013 4:16 am

Hi Chownah
The way I understand, only Vipassana meditators will be able to attain the cessation of feeling & perception.
The Samath meditators need an object to sustain their meditations which is lack in the cessation of feeling and perception.
Those who have cultivated the Jhānas or Ecstasies are born on higher planes or sphere.
There is no plane called Cessation of feeling and perception. It is a temporary suspension of consciousness which last only about seven days.
In my opinion it is wrong to say Cessation of feeling and perception as Jhanas. :shrug:

I like to know what others think about it.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:39 am

Some further info:
My previous post I said:
There is no plane called Cessation of feeling and perception.
================
But now I found the following:
=======================
In the eleventh plane, called the Asaññasatta, beings are
born without a consciousness.
Here only a material flux exists. Mind is temporarily suspended
while the force of the Jhāna lasts. Normally both
mind and matter are inseparable. By the power of meditation
it is possible, at times, to separate matter from mind as in this particular case. When an Arahant attains the Nirodha
Samāpatti, too, his consciousness ceases to exist temporarily.
Such a state is almost inconceivable to us. But there may be inconceivable
things which are actual facts.
Page:346
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby SarathW » Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:46 am

Further information relating to op:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19012
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cobwith
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception n

Postby cobwith » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:19 pm

SarathW wrote:***

I just happen to hit upon this old thread, and I was wondering if I could still give my position on the matter. I hope to have your say on that later on.
My question is "what does Neither perception nor non-perception mean" in the first place?

First, we must reexamine the genesis (and cessation) of -perception- as it appears twice in Paticcasamuppada:

So Ignorance (Avijja) yields three pairs, namely:
- In breath & out breath (Assāsa & Passāsā)
- Thought & pondering (Vitakka & Vicārā)
- Perception & feeling (Saññā & Vedanā)

And the force that is Saṅkhārā [saṃ (together) + karoti (to make)] joins each pair, to return three determinations, to wit:
- kāyasaṅkhāro (bodily determination)
- vacīsaṅkhāro (verbal determination)
- cittasaṅkhāro (mental determination)

Which in turn are joined by the force saṅkhārā, to allow for the generation of Viññana (consciousness).

As Avijja still "does not know," then consciousness delivers the "Mind & Thing machine" that is Nama-Rupa (Name & Form,) namely:
- Feelings
- Perceptions
- Intentions
- Contact
- Mental attention
&
- The four great elements
- The form seized from them as me or mine

which in turn, when they combine together, deliver the Six Spheres (of senses).
And we know the rest; that is to say the forward move (anulomam) towards Being and Birth.

What is interesting is Buddha's remark (SN 12.65) as an unawakened Bodhisatta, just before he got enlightened. He talks about the reverse process of Paticcasamuppada (patilomam,) namely:
Buddha wrote:"Then the thought occurred to me, 'This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & re-arising, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form."
.....
"Origination, origination."

Vision, clear knowledge, wisdom, thorough noesis and illumination (dassanā, ñāṇa, paññā, vijja, āloka) arose in Him.

It is when the Buddha understood that consciousness would not allow him to reach back to Saṅkhārā nidana, the second link of Paticcasamuppada, that He knew He was trapped in the vicious circle produced by the bi-lateral circular relationship that exists between consciousness & Nama-Rupa; and that He had to escape from it.

"Cessation, cessation"
The solution to the problem was to work out the utter destruction of consciousness through the destruction of all the components below it; of which perception (belonging to Nama-Rupa) is a crucial part.
Once that was done reaching yathābhutañāṇadassana (knowledge of things as they really are,) and the destruction of forms, feeling, perception, etc; then the higher jhanas could be reached at last.

And here we arrive at the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception (one of these higher jhanas).
Neither perception nor non-perception. What could that entail?

Does that mean that, in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, we do not perceive with the perceptions belonging to Nama-Rupa anymore; but we do perceive with the perception belonging to the Saṅkhārā nidana?

Am I right?


Perception
The Blessed One said thus and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One.

SarathW
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby SarathW » Fri Jan 29, 2016 11:08 pm

My understanding is that in neither perception nor non-perceptions, you still find the feelings.
Please compare this to the cessation of perception and feeling (Nirodha Samapatti)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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cobwith
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby cobwith » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:03 am

SarathW wrote:My understanding is that in neither perception nor non-perceptions, you still find the feelings.

That is right - I agree.
Again though, feelings* that belong to Sankhara nidana (second link of paticcasamuppada,) but not feelings that belong to Nama/Rupa.

---------

What is Name and Matter (a.k.a. Name-&-Form)?
- Feelings
- Perceptions
- Intentions
- Contact
- Mental attention
are name.
- The four great elements and
- This form seized from them as me or mine
is matter.

---------
* Feelings are the last thing you "do away with" once you have gone the all paticcasamuppada backwards.
I don't have the sutta that mentions it in mind anymore.
The Blessed One said thus and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One.

SarathW
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby SarathW » Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:45 am

I see your point.
Hear we are talking about Arupavacara realm.
According to Culavedalla sutta, you can not separate perception and feeling. (conjoined not disjoint)
We also should understand that Nama Rupa arise together.
I am not sure whether Arupavacara is Nama only?
So best thing is to leave it as it is until we get to that point.
:)
Last edited by SarathW on Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby santa100 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 2:46 am

SarathW wrote:Do you think non Ariyas (Jhana meditators) can attain the cessation of feeling & perception?

From Vism. XXIII.18:
Who attains it (cessation of perception and feeling attainment)? (iii) Who do not attain it? No ordinary men, no streamenterers or once-returners, and no non-returners and Arahants who are bareinsight workers attain it. But both non-returners and those with cankers destroyed (Arahants) who are obtainers of the eight attainments attain it. For it is said: “Understanding that is mastery, owing to possession of two powers, to the tranquilization of three formations, to sixteen kinds of exercise of knowledge, and to nine kinds of exercise of concentration, is knowledge of the attainment of cessation” (Paþis I 97). And these qualifications are not to be found together in any persons other than non-returners and those whose cankers are destroyed, who are obtainers of the eight attainments. That is why only they and no others attain it.

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cobwith
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Re: Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not m

Postby cobwith » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:42 pm

SarathW wrote:Hear we are talking about Arupavacara realm.

That's exactly it.

Arupa, Anama & Aviññana should we say.

So, to answer your question: "Why dimension of neither perception nor non-perception not mentioned here?" - Because you need to get rid of all the Nama-Rupa stuff (as specified above,) as well as space and consciousness; but there is no need to cast off feeling & perception (belonging to the Sankhara nidana). You don't need to reach that later jhana state to lose all the five lower fetters.
You just need to realize (actualize) the state of No-Thingness to (really/actually) lose self-identity views (one of the five, crucial, and most difficult to get rid of lower fetters)

(see MN 64 again)

Then, and only then, does the sutta mentions (without naming it) the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, as far as the taints, but not the five lower fetters, are concerned; namely:
Buddha wrote:He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’

The sphere of neither perception nor non perception (or should we say the sphere of perception in the Sankhara nidana*,) is part of the deathless element.

* As stated in a previous post above.

Buddha wrote:If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints.

Casting off the sphere of neither perception nor non perception will help terminate the last remnants of craving for existence, and ignorance (taints;) namely leading to total liberation.
The Blessed One said thus and those bhikkhus delighted in the words of the Blessed One.


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