MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

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MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:01 am


MN 141 PTS: M iii 248
Saccavibhanga Sutta: Discourse on The Analysis of the Truths
translated from the Pali by Piyadassi Thera


Ven. Sariputta gives a detailed elaboration on the Buddha's teaching of the Four Noble Truths.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html

Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living in the Deer Park at Isipatana (the Resort of Saints) near Varanasi (Benares). Then he addressed the monks saying: "O Monks." "Venerable Sir," replied those monks in assent to the Blessed One. Thereupon he said:

"The matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata,[1] the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana or Deva or Mara or Brahma or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them.

"Of what four: It was a proclamation of the Noble Truth of suffering (dukkha), by way of teaching... (as before) and elucidating it; of the Noble Truth of the arising (cause) of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering. This matchless Wheel of Dhamma, monks, set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse... or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them.

"Monks, follow Sariputta and Moggallana; associate with Sariputta and Moggallana. Wise monks do help (materially and spiritually) those who live the holy life. Monks, Sariputta is like unto a mother, Moggallana is like unto a foster-mother to a child. Sariputta, monks, trains (beings) in the path[2] of stream-attainment. Moggallana in the highest goal (arahantship).[3] Sariputta, monks, is able to proclaim, teach, lay down, establish, open up, analyze, and elucidate the Four Noble Truths."

This the Blessed One said, and having said so, the Welcome Being (sugata)[4] rose from his seat and entered (his) abode. Not long after the Blessed One had departed, the Venerable Sariputta addressed the monks, saying: "Reverend friends." "Your reverence," the monks replied the Venerable Sariputta in assent.

This the Venerable Sariputta said:

"Your reverence, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consummate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park, at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana... (as before) in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them.

"Of what four? It was a proclamation of the Noble Truth of suffering (dukkha) by way of teaching... elucidating it; of the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering... of the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering.

"What, your reverence, is the Noble Truth of suffering? Birth is suffering; aging is suffering; death is suffering; grief, lamentation, bodily pain, mental pain and despair are suffering; not getting what one desires, that too is suffering: In brief the five aggregates subject to grasping are suffering.

"What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.

"What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging.

"What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death.

"What is grief? It is the grief, sorrow, sorrowfulness, the state of being sorry, inward sorrow, inward intense sorrow visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called grief.

"What is lamentation? It is the crying, the wailing, the act of crying, the act of wailing, the state of crying, the state of wailing of one visited by some calamity or other, smitten by some kind of ill or other. This is called lamentation.

"What is suffering? It is bodily suffering, bodily unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by bodily contact. This is called suffering.

"What is misery? It is mental suffering, unpleasantness, the painful and unpleasant feeling produced by mental contact. This is called misery.

"What is despair? It is despondency, despair, the state of despondency, the state of despair of one visited by some calamity or other. This is called despair.

"What is meant by not getting what one desires, that too is suffering? To beings subject to birth there comes desire: 'O might we not be subject to birth, and birth not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by mere desiring. So not getting what one desires, that too, is suffering. To beings subject to aging there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to aging, and aging not come to us...' (as before). To beings subject to disease there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to disease and disease not come to us...' To beings subject to death there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to death and death not come to us...' To beings subject to sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair there comes the desire: 'O might we not be subject to sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair, and sorrow, lamentation, suffering, misery, and despair not come to us.' But this cannot be attained by merely desiring. So not getting what one desires that too is suffering.

"What, in brief, are the five aggregates subject to grasping that are suffering? These are the aggregate of matter subject to grasping, the aggregate of feeling..., the aggregate of perception..., the aggregate of mental (volitional) formations..., the aggregate of consciousness subject to grasping. These are called, in brief, the five aggregates subject to grasping that are suffering. This is called the Noble Truth of suffering.

"What is the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering? It is this craving which produces re-becoming (re-birth) accompanied by passionate greed, and finding delight now here now there, namely the craving for sense pleasures, craving for existence and craving for non-existence (self-annihilation). This is called the Noble Truth of the arising of suffering.

"What is the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering? It is the complete cessation of that very craving, giving it up, relinquishing it, liberating oneself from it, and detaching oneself from it. This is called the Noble Truth of the cessation of suffering.

"And what is the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering? It is this Noble Eightfold Path itself, namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"What is right understanding? It is this knowledge of suffering, knowledge of the arising of suffering, knowledge of the cessation of suffering, knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of suffering — this is called right understanding.

"What is right thought? Thought of renunciation, thought of goodwill, thought of not harming — this is called right thought.

"What is right speech? Abstention from false speech, abstention from tale-bearing, abstention from harsh (abusive) speech, abstention from idle chatter (gossip), this is called right speech.

"What is right action? Abstention from killing, abstention from stealing, abstention from illicit sexual indulgence, this is called right action.

"What is right livelihood? Herein (in this dispensation) the ariyan disciple avoiding wrong livelihood, makes his living by right livelihood, this is called right livelihood.

"What is right effort? Herein a monk puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to prevent the arising of evil, of unwholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; puts forth will... (as before) to banish the evil, unwholesome thoughts that have already arisen; puts forth will... to develop wholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; and puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to maintain, to preserve, increase, to bring them to maturity, development, and to complete the wholesome thoughts that have arisen. This is called right effort.

"What is right mindfulness? Herein a monk lives practicing body contemplation on the body, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it), having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of the body).

"He lives practicing feeling-contemplation on the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of feelings).

"He lives practicing mind-contemplation on the mind, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of the mind).

"He lives practicing mind-object contemplation on the mind objects, ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful (of it) having overcome covetousness and dejection concerning the world (of mental objects). This is called right mindfulness.

"And what is right concentration? Herein a monk aloof from sense desires, aloof from unwholesome thoughts, attains to and abides in the first meditative absorption (jhana) which is detachment-born and accompanied by applied thought, sustained thought, joy, and bliss.

"By allaying applied and sustained thought he attains to, and abides in the second jhana which is inner tranquillity, which is unification (of the mind), devoid of applied and sustained thought, and which has joy and bliss.

"By detachment from joy he dwells in equanimity, mindful, and with clear comprehension and enjoys bliss in body, and attains to and abides in the third jhana which the noble ones (ariyas) call: 'Dwelling in equanimity, mindfulness, and bliss.'

"By giving up of bliss and suffering, by the disappearance already of joy and sorrow, he attains to, and abides in the fourth jhana, which is neither suffering nor bliss, and which is the purity of equanimity-mindfulness. This is called right concentration.

"This is called the Noble Truth of the Path leading to the cessation of suffering.

"Your reverence, the matchless Wheel of Dhamma set in motion by the Tathagata, the Consumate One, the supremely Enlightened One, in the Deer Park, at Isipatana near Varanasi, cannot be set in motion by a recluse or brahmana or deva or Brahma or by anyone in the world. That is to say, it was a proclamation of the Four Noble Truths, by way of teaching, laying down, establishing, opening up, analyzing, and elucidating them."

This the Venerable Sariputta said. Those monks glad at heart rejoiced at the words of the Venerable Sariputta.

Notes

1. For a very comprehensive account of the Four Noble Truths read The Buddha's Ancient Path, Piyadassi Thera, Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka (Ceylon).
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... t_Path.htm

2. Literally "fruit," "sotapatti phale."

3. To train in the path of stream-attainment is more difficult than to train in the path of arahantship for the reason that in the former case one has to deal with undeveloped beings, and in the latter case with those who are already developed, and who are, by virtue of their development, not destined to fall back.

4. This is another epithet of the Buddha.
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:12 am

MN 141 PTS: M iii 248
Saccavibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Truths
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, at Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Tathagatha — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deity, Mara, or Brahma or anyone at all in the cosmos: in other words, the declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of the four noble truths. Of which four? The declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of the noble truth of stress. The declaration, teaching, description, setting forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of the noble truth of the origination of stress... the noble truth of the cessation of stress... the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Tathagatha — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deity, Mara, or Brahma or anyone at all in the cosmos: in other words, the declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of these four noble truths.

"Monks, associate with Sariputta & Moggallana. Consort with Sariputta & Moggallana. They are wise monks, sympathetic toward their fellows in the holy life. Like the mother giving birth: That's Sariputta. Like the nurse raising a child after it's born: That's Moggallana. Sariputta trains [others] to the fruit of stream-entry; Moggallana, to the highest goal.[1] Sariputta is capable of declaring, teaching, describing, setting forth, revealing, explaining, and making plain the four noble truths in detail."

That is what the Blessed One said. Having said it, he — the One Well-gone — rose from his seat and entered his dwelling.

Then Ven. Sariputta, not long after the Blessed One had left, addressed the monks, "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Sariputta said, "Friends, at Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Tathagatha — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deity, Mara, or Brahma or anyone at all in the cosmos: in other words, the declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of the four noble truths. Of which four? The declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of the noble truth of stress... the noble truth of the origination of stress... the noble truth of the cessation of stress... the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress. At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Tathagatha — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deity, Mara, or Brahma or anyone at all in the cosmos: in other words, the declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of these four noble truths.

"Now what, friends, is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; not getting what is wanted is stressful.[2] In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent, coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] spheres of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called birth.

"And what is aging? Whatever aging, decrepitude, brokenness, graying, wrinkling, decline of life-force, weakening of the faculties of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called aging.

"And what is death? Whatever deceasing, passing away, breaking up, disappearance, dying, death, completion of time, break up of the aggregates, casting off of the body, interruption in the life faculty of the various beings in this or that group of beings, that is called death.

"And what is sorrow? Whatever sorrow, sorrowing, sadness, inward sorrow, inward sadness of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called sorrow.

"And what is lamentation? Whatever crying, grieving, lamenting, weeping, wailing, lamentation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called lamentation.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.

"And what is distress? Whatever is experienced as mental pain, mental discomfort, pain or discomfort born of mental contact, that is called distress.

"And what is despair? Whatever despair, despondency, desperation of anyone suffering from misfortune, touched by a painful thing, that is called despair.

"And what is the stress of not getting what is wanted? In beings subject to birth, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to birth, and may birth not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted. In beings subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, the wish arises, 'O, may we not be subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair, and may aging... illness... death... sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair not come to us.' But this is not to be achieved by wanting. This is the stress of not getting what is wanted.

"And what are the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful? The clinging-aggregate of form, the clinging-aggregate of feeling, the clinging-aggregate of perception, the clinging-aggregate of fabrications, the clinging-aggregate of consciousness: These are called the five clinging-aggregates that, in short, are stressful.

"This, friends, is called the noble truth of stress.

"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

"This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

"This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

"And what, friends, is the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress? Just this very noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"And what is right view? Knowledge with reference to stress, knowledge with reference to the origination of stress, knowledge with reference to the cessation of stress, knowledge with reference to the way of practice leading to the cessation of stress: This is called right view.

And what is right resolve? The resolve for renunciation, for freedom from ill will, for harmlessness: This is called right resolve.

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

"And what is right action? Abstaining from taking life, from stealing, & from sexual misconduct: This is called right action.

"And what is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This is called right livelihood.

"And what is right effort? There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, arouses persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen... for the sake of the abandoning of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen... for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen... (and) for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This is called right effort.

"And what is right mindfulness? There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves... the mind in & of itself... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. This is called right mindfulness.

"And what is right concentration? There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called right concentration.

"This is called the noble truth of the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.

"Friends, at Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Tathagatha — the worthy one, the rightly self-awakened one — set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahman or contemplative, deity, Mara, or Brahma or anyone at all in the cosmos: in other words, the declaration, teaching, description, setting-forth, revelation, explanation, and making-plain of these four noble truths."

That is what Ven. Sariputta said. Gratified, the monks delighted in Ven. Sariputta's words.

Notes

1. The Buddha declared Sariputta to be foremost among his disciples in terms of discernment; Moggallana, foremost in terms of psychic powers. It might seem strange, then, that Sariputta takes on what seems to be a lower job, but as many Buddhist teachers have commented, it is much harder to train an ordinary person to enter the stream than it is to train a stream-winner to reach the highest goal.

2. In passages where the Buddha defines stress, (e.g., SN 56.11, DN 22), he includes the statements, "association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful," prior to "not getting what one wants is stressful." For some reason, in passages where Ven. Sariputta defines stress (here and at MN 9 and MN 28), he drops these statements from the definition.

See also: DN 22; SN 12.20; SN 56.11; AN 3.134.
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mal4mac » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:51 am

"What is right action? Abstention from killing, abstention from stealing, abstention from illicit sexual indulgence, this is called right action.


Two of the five precepts are missing - abstention from intoxication, and abstention from lying. Can you follow the path to the end if you drink, somewhat, or tell a few inconsequential lies?

"What is right effort? Herein a monk puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to prevent the arising of evil, of unwholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; puts forth will...


How does one "put forth will"? Do you do it just by being mindful? Or do you also get a bit more active at times... perhaps arguing with yourself? Or forcing yourself to do something?

1. For a very comprehensive account of the Four Noble Truths read The Buddha's Ancient Path, Piyadassi Thera, Buddhist Publication Society. Kandy, Sri Lanka (Ceylon).
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... t_Path.htm


This looks interesting, anyone read it?

- Metta,
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby santa100 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:59 pm

mal4mac wrote:Two of the five precepts are missing - abstention from intoxication, and abstention from lying. Can you follow the path to the end if you drink, somewhat, or tell a few inconsequential lies?


In the paragraph right above the Right Action section:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech


Abstain from intoxicants is automatically implied for it hinders the successful implementation of any of the 8 limbs of the Noble Eightfold Path.

How does one "put forth will"? Do you do it just by being mindful? Or do you also get a bit more active at times... perhaps arguing with yourself? Or forcing yourself to do something?


Notice the other concrete actions following "put forth will" under the Right Effort section:
What is right effort? Herein a monk puts forth will, strives, stirs up energy, strengthens his mind, exerts himself to prevent the arising of evil, of unwholesome thoughts that have not yet arisen; puts forth will...
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby starter » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:38 pm

Greetings!

Thanks for choosing/sharing these two suttas. I like the translation of the second sutta better, in which Right Resolve/Thought is defined as "And what is right resolve? The resolve for renunciation, for freedom from ill will (instead of the resolve for good will), for harmlessness: This is called right resolve."

I tend to think that the Buddha taught "resolve for freedom from ill will" as right resolve, as demonstrated in MN 19. But I tend to think that right resolve/thought might also include resolve for non-hostility and non-anger, which together with ill comprise the second group of defilements taught in MN 7.

As to the question concerning drinking, I agree that it's included in the mindfulness factor. The purpose of the fifth precept is for maintaining self control and mindfulness.

Metta to all!
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby Carrigy » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:03 am

mikenz66 wrote:"What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.

"What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging.

"What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death.

Hi MikeNZ

What is interesting here is Sariputta uses the definitions of birth, aging & death found in the Paticcasummupada and excludes "sickness is suffering" as found in most translations of the 1st sermon. Intrinsic in the definitions found in the Paticcasummupada is the term "beings" (satta), which is a mental becoming (refer to Satta Sutta). This makes the MN 141 questionable, in my opinion, because in the 1st sermon the Buddha appears to be referring to physical birth, physical sickness, physical aging & physical death. (Where as the Paticcasummupada refers to the birth, aging & death of the self-identity of "beings", as explained by Nanavira the Sotapanna). I hope you understand. :)
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:59 am

Comments from Bhikkhu Bodhi:

2. “At Benares, bhikkhus, in the Deer Park at Isipatana the Tathāgata, accomplished and fully enlightened, set rolling the matchless Wheel of the Dhamma, which cannot be stopped by any recluse or brahmin or god or Māra or Brahmā or anyone in the world—that is, the announcing, teaching, describing, establishing, revealing, expounding, and exhibiting of the Four Noble Truths. Of what four?
    BB: This refers to the Buddha’s first sermon, delivered to the five bhikkhus in the Deer Park at Isipatana: SN 56.11.

5. “Cultivate the friendship of Sāriputta and Moggallāna, bhikkhus; associate with Sāriputta and Moggallāna. They are wise and helpful to their companions in the holy life. Sāriputta is like a mother; Moggallāna is like a nurse. Sāriputta trains others for the fruit of stream-entry, Moggallāna for the supreme goal. Sāriputta, bhikkhus, is able to announce, teach, describe, establish, reveal, expound, and exhibit the Four Noble Truths.”
    MA: Ven. Sāriputta trains them until he knows they have attained the fruit of stream-entry, then he lets them develop the higher paths on their own and he takes on a new batch of pupils. But Ven. Moggallāna continues to train his pupils until they have attained arahantship.

11. “And what, friends, is birth? The birth of beings into the various orders of beings, their coming to birth, precipitation [in a womb], generation, the manifestation of the aggregates, obtaining the bases for contact—this is called birth.
    BB: The definitions of birth, ageing, and death are also found at MN 9.22, 26. This entire detailed analysis of the Four Noble Truths is included in the Mahāsatịhāna Sutta, with an even more elaborate exposition of the second and third truths. See DN 22.18–21/ii.305–13.
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mal4mac » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:05 pm

Isn't speech an action? Why have a separate category "Right Speech"?

I always have difficulty bringing "the eight" immediately to my sieve-like mind, maybe because some seem to be sub-categories of others.

Here's an attempt at a hierarchy: Right Knowledge, Right Will (Intent, Effort), Right Conduct (Speech, Livelihood, Other Actions), Right Meditation (Insight, Concentration).

Anyone have any mnemonic tricks for remembering these lists?
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mal4mac » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:17 pm

starter wrote:Greetings!

Thanks for choosing/sharing these two suttas. I like the translation of the second sutta better...


So is it Right Resolve or Right Thought? I've seen this step also described as Right intent (Novak & Smith).
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby santa100 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:47 pm

mal4mac wrote:Anyone have any mnemonic tricks for remembering these lists?


A good one from this site.. http://buddhazen101.tumblr.com/post/300 ... -fold-path :
-------------------
Until
Thoughts
Stop
Acting
Like
Excited
Monkeys….
Confusion!
-------------------
Right Understanding
Right Thought
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

So is it Right Resolve or Right Thought? I've seen this step also described as Right intent (Novak & Smith).


Ven. Bodhi's excellent essay on the 8NP: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby daverupa » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:38 pm

mal4mac wrote:Anyone have any mnemonic tricks for remembering these lists?


You could stick with Sila, Samadhi, Panna. It's even possible to group things under two categories, Sila and Panna, with the Samadhi aspects contained under Sila (this organization can be found in the first few Digha Nikaya suttas, after which the organization is expanded to Sila, Samadhi, Panna. You would translate Sila as "conduct" rather than "morality" for this to make the most sense).

The gradual training format goes over this ground as well, the general gist of which may be easier to memorize in that context.

In this way, it can be seen that it isn't a matter of getting the lists correct so much as a matter of understanding where & how to apply the Dhamma in ones life.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:20 pm

mal4mac wrote:
starter wrote:Greetings!

Thanks for choosing/sharing these two suttas. I like the translation of the second sutta better...


So is it Right Resolve or Right Thought? I've seen this step also described as Right intent (Novak & Smith).

This is probably the most variably-translated term in the list. Here is another option:
2. Right motivation sammā-sankappa thoughts free from sense-desire, from ill-will, and cruelty.
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#magga

And here is an extensive discussion: http://obo.genaud.net/backmatter/glosso ... nkappa.htm

:anjali:
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:22 pm

Carrigy wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:"What is birth? It is the birth of beings in the various classes (planes) of beings; the production, their conception, coming into existence (re-birth), the appearance of the aggregates, acquiring of the sense-bases. This is called birth.

"What is aging? It is the aging of beings in the various classes of beings, their decay, broken teeth, graying hair, wrinkled skin, the dwindling of the life-span, the wearing out of the sense-organs. This is called aging.

"What is death? It is the passing away of beings in the various classes of beings; the falling away, the breaking up, the disappearance, the death, making end of life, the breaking up of the aggregates, the laying down of the body. This is called death.

Hi MikeNZ

What is interesting here is Sariputta uses the definitions of birth, aging & death found in the Paticcasummupada and excludes "sickness is suffering" as found in most translations of the 1st sermon. Intrinsic in the definitions found in the Paticcasummupada is the term "beings" (satta), which is a mental becoming (refer to Satta Sutta). This makes the MN 141 questionable, in my opinion, because in the 1st sermon the Buddha appears to be referring to physical birth, physical sickness, physical aging & physical death. (Where as the Paticcasummupada refers to the birth, aging & death of the self-identity of "beings", as explained by Nanavira the Sotapanna). I hope you understand. :)

The four noble truths and dependent origination are intertwined. They don't describe totally different things. Origination of suffering = dependent origination. Cessation of suffering = cessation of dependent origination. So also in terms of dependent origination it very clearly talks about literal birth and death. The clearest example probably is SN 12.2 which is called 'analysis of dependent origination'.

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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby gavesako » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:53 pm

There are some variant readings in the different Pali editions. Some include "sickness" in the definition of the First Noble Truth and others do not.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby reflection » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:25 pm

Another translation I came across:
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... suttam.htm


(btw here sickness is indeed included, thanks bhante for pointing this out)

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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby mal4mac » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:19 am

reflection wrote:The four noble truths and dependent origination are intertwined. They don't describe totally different things. Origination of suffering = dependent origination. Cessation of suffering = cessation of dependent origination...


Isn't "Cessation of suffering = cessation of craving" a better formulation?
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Re: MN 141: Saccavibhanga Sutta — Analysis of the Truths

Postby reflection » Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:43 am

What I meant to say is the second noble truth, the origin of suffering, is described in more detail by dependent origination. The third noble truth, the cessation of suffering, is described in more detail by cessation of dependent origination. In essence they describe the same thing. So you can't really take the two teachings apart and assume they have a totally different meaning of birth, aging and death.

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