Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

daverupa wrote:... the infringement of copyrights... does not amount to theft as far as Theravādin Vinaya is concerned...
But doesn't that leave this website, and its users, open to legal attack? I'm now of the opinion that this forum abides by a strange definition of "stealing", and will be more careful what I download in future!

"What is unskillful? Taking life is unskillful, taking what is not given..." — MN 9
- Mal
daverupa
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by daverupa »

mal4mac wrote:
daverupa wrote:... the infringement of copyrights... does not amount to theft as far as Theravādin Vinaya is concerned...
But doesn't that leave this website, and its users, open to legal attack?
Not really - I'm not a lawyer so your mileage may vary, but forum posts and their content are the sole responsibility of the poster, not the forum nor its owners/operators. Usually this is spelled out in the TOS. In our case,
Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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convivium
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by convivium »

the dhamma should always be free.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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tiltbillings
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by tiltbillings »

convivium wrote:the dhamma should always be free.
As long as you willing to help pay for it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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appicchato
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by appicchato »

...forum posts and their content are the sole responsibility of the poster, not the forum nor its owners/operators.
Unfortunately not so in Thailand... :coffee:
dagon
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by dagon »

mal4mac wrote:
Ben wrote:
BlackBird wrote:Hi all

I can't seem to find my copy of Ven. Analayo's Satipatthana book. I can't remember whether I just misplaced it or whether I left it in Wellington or whether I gave it away. I came across a pdf on scribd, and I'm wondering if it's a violation of the 2nd precept for me to download it given that I've purchased multiple copies of it in past?

It would seem to me that it would not violate the spirit of the 2nd precept, but would it violate the letter?

Looking forward to your responses.

metta
Jack
Jack,
My interpretation is that, yes, it is a violation of the second precept.
The second precept is not to take that which is not freely given.
Given that many of the resources on scribd are unauthorised duplications, I would attempt to contact the author and ask for permission to download an electronic copy as you've already purchased several physical copies in the past but mislaid them.
kind regards,

Ben
Then why, as site admin, do you allow illegal download of copyright works from this site?
Hi mal4mac and all

Simple answer is they don’t, from what I have seen (willing to corrected) copyright work appears on this site in 2 formats:

1. Where work that maybe subject to copyright is quoted from an external source. That use of material comes under fair dealing because of use of a limited part of the work and for the purpose of study.. The work being referenced so that we may better understand the providence of the source material also provides an opportunity for the holder of the copyright to benefit through promotion.

2. Where links are included in post to external sites. Dhamma wheel and its administration have no control over the external sites – down loads from them are a matter between the copyright owners, those sites and those who download from them. If this site was promoting the breach of copyright then it becomes more problematic – but kindly read what you were responding to.

As posters to this site we should exercise care and judgement is what links we provide – with reference to the TOS, Dhamma and the laws that apply (that includes both the USA and the jurisdiction that we are utilising the forum in.

Jack I know that you have the best intention (otherwise you would not have started this topic). As for the OP all I can say is shades of grey !!!

Ben, thank you for all your work and the metta that you show all of us.

metta
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retrofuturist
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
appicchato wrote:
Be a generous person, don't cause harm, don't sweat this small stuff.
Pearls...
:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

I saw your post in the thread in the resource guide Mac.

This is what I have to say:

I don't think you're breaking any precepts if you read something that is copyright protected, if the status is ambiguous, given that most books can be rented from a public library - In my opinion viewing copyrighted material online is the same thing. It's just like streaming music on youtube - You don't go and download that music - You're just viewing it online. Downloading it on the other hand would be taking possession of what is not freely given. But I wouldn't see viewing the article as a breech of such precepts.

Furthermore, precepts are something personal. Up to a point, one shouldn't be worried about what others are doing with their precepts, that is a waste of energy, there is a line beyond which others violation becomes harmful to the community at large, but this is not one of those cases imo. One could be using one's time to focus on one's own problems rather than concerning oneself with the policies of a website.

with metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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convivium
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by convivium »

Blackbird, your argument goes something as follows:
Suppose someone A has regular access to the internet.
Suppose someone B doesn't.
A references copyrighted texts online without downloading.
B references copyrighted texts, the same amount of time etc., offline by downloading them.
You would claim that B is morally wrong and A is morally right.
B is wrong by virtue of not being connected to the internet in referencing the data (of course, either way the data is a non-diminishable resource).
So, downloading any copyrighted text once, to be accessed offline, is inherently worse than downloading continually and accessing it online; by virtue of what exactly?
My guess is that you will say it wasn't freely given to be accessed offline.
Just keep breathing in and out like this. Don't be interested in anything else. It doesn't matter even if someone is standing on their head with their ass in the air. Don't pay it any attention. Just stay with the in-breath and the out-breath. Concentrate your awareness on the breath. Just keep doing it. http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Just_Do_It_1_2.php
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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

Your logic is not without merit Convinuum

In the case example I was talking about the work was copyrighted and had not been given permission for his work to be published on the website in question. I don't know whether that means it's a copyright violation for someone to view it or not. But my suggestion is that because public libraries can buy copies of these texts, and allow others to view and borrow them for free - Or indeed if I buy a book, there's nothing wrong in me lending it to someone to view - But they haven't paid for it either. So in my opinion viewing something online isn't really a breech of the precepts. Some might disagree and that's okay. As you point out, when you look at it in terms of what's the difference between viewing it online and offline there's not much difference.

Some authors of copyrighted material might give permission for their work to be shared on sribd or something for example, but not for the product to be downloaded, same as the youtube thing. I'm not really here to debate the merits of this - Or to argue whether there is a moral or logical difference between accessing material online or downloading it. I couldn't give a toss really - What I do care about is whether I'm practicing good sila, and I don't think I'm causing any issues to myself or others if I click on a link, read an article/book, and summarily find out that the copyright had not been given for the text to be published on that website - Which is what happened to mal4mac.

What I was saying was, at least for me - If I decided to download it, I would in my own mind be taking posession of the text, and seeing as it was not freely given, I would probably consider it a breech of sila. A breech that I have (to be completely honest) been guilty of numerous times over the years, and even recently (just in case one might have thought I was trumpeting from atop a high horse)

TL;DR: The difference is possession.

metta
Jack
Last edited by BlackBird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

Dude you're not going to jail, and you're not going to be fined thousands of dollars for accidentally viewing some book on a Buddhist website on a book about Buddhism. And nothing's going to happen to this forum for allowing people to post links like that. Not when there are thousands of forums on the internet who's sole purpose it to promulgate copyrighted material. Don't you think they would be targeted long before some Buddhist forum in the distant corners of the internet gets hit for allowing a member to post a link to monastery websites misuse of a copyrighted material?

The idea that Dhamma Wheel or one of it's users would be had up for copyright infringement by a Buddhist author for viewing his book on a Sangha website is ridiculous...

It's simply not going to happen.

If you were downloading a dodgy torrent on pirate bay that was uploaded by RIAA/MPAA trappers who insert tracking codes in then it might be a different story - But you're not. A Buddhist author is not going to prosecute you for accidentally reading a book found on a monasteries website. The very worst case scenario is that he contacts the Monastery website and asks them to remove it.

Why on earth do you think he would bother taking the Sangha to court, and then having them subpoenaed to provide IP addresses of everyone who's accessed it (probably thousands of people) and then bringing litigation against all of them - That would cost hundreds of times the amount he has every earned from that book, in legal/court fees.There's just no way it's going to happen buddy. This is the most farfetched worry I have heard this year. Literally.

The only person that's caused you harm is you, not any member here... You've caused yourself harm for worrying too much and causing yourself completely unnecessary stress, and for intending the negative thoughts that some member has hurt/harmed you by posting a link that you clicked on. He hasn't harmed you... There's NOTHING to worry about.

So just relax :)
Last edited by BlackBird on Tue Jul 30, 2013 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

dagon wrote:
mal4mac wrote:Then why, as site admin, do you allow illegal download of copyright works from this site?
Simple answer is they don’t...
Sorry, I should have been more precise, and I should have asked the question to Ben and all moderators, as Ben can't be expected to perform all the moderation.

"Why do you allow direct links to copyright protected pdf files from this site?"

I'm worried than Ben might end up in clink, and me with a hefty fine, and his excellent forum taken down - is this small stuff?

Maybe there's legal precedent that says "forum owners cannot be prosecuted for direct links to copyright protected pdf files on other sites"? If so, Ben is safe, if Ben doesn't know, if I was, Ben I'd check. Or maybe he can live with it? In any case I've done my bit. Now I'll relax :)

metta to all...
Mal
- Mal
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BlackBird
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by BlackBird »

Dude... Seriously.

Answer this: Why on earth, would an administrator of a small forum in the middle of nowhere on the internet, which nobody knows about, be prosecuted by a Buddhist author, for allowing links to be posted to a Sangha website that contains copyrighted material of his work?

Why would he even bother doing that, when he can contact the Sangha website of the monastery in question, and ask them to remove it.

What on earth would cause someone to be so petty and vindictive. Not to mention the virtual certainty that the case would be thrown out of court because the legislation that covers this type of breech (the DMCA - Digital millenium copyright act) - Would require him to first request the moderators to simply remove the post - Which I can almost guarantee they would do. That must be done before any legal action can be taken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Mi ... ng_content

The article itself only mentions one historic case of an organisation being prosecuted for linking to copyrighted material, and even then it was only because of a refusal to remove said material. But even then the writer has provided no reference, so even that might never have happened. The moderators here are so far removed from the risk of prosecution, they couldn't be further if they tried. So what does that say about you? The threat to you is even further removed.

So nobody has harmed you. Nobody has harmed Ben. Nobody's getting fined and nobody is going to jail. That is the reality.

This is a perfect case of somebody who does not understand Copyright legislation becoming unnecessarily agitated and worried at a non-existent threat of legal action.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

BlackBird wrote:Dude you're not going to jail, and you're not going to be fined thousands of dollars for accidentally viewing some book on a Buddhist website on a book about Buddhism.
Maybe not in New Zealand. Read that "Independent" article, I'm in the UK, and I wouldn't be surprised to have "men in black" suits knocking on my door sometime soon...
BlackBird wrote: And nothing's going to happen to this forum for allowing people to post links like that. Not when there are thousands of forums on the internet who's sole purpose it to promulgate copyrighted material. Don't you think they would be targeted long before some Buddhist forum in the distant corners of the internet gets hit for allowing a member to post a link to monastery websites misuse of a copyrighted material?
Who knows? In any case, this 'I'm unlikely to get caught, so it's alright' argument is very dubious, I could take up house burglary using the same argument
BlackBird wrote: The idea that Dhamma Wheel or one of it's users would be had up for copyright infringement by a Buddhist author for viewing his book on a Sangha website is ridiculous...
If he's prepared to sell his books, and take lots of money for being a professor, who knows? Is he a Buddhist? Many academics writers on Buddhism are not. Even if he is forgiving, I can't see "Oxford University Press" being so forgiving, and the publishers call the shots...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_ ... _v._Becker
BlackBird wrote: If you were downloading a dodgy torrent on pirate bay that was uploaded by RIAA/MPAA trappers who insert tracking codes in then it might be a different story - But you're not. A Buddhist author is not going to prosecute you for accidentally reading a book found on a monasteries website. The very worst case scenario is that he contacts the Monastery website and asks them to remove it.
They put Georgia state university on trial! Do you think they'd not be prepared to take on a monastery or Dhamma Wheel?
BlackBird wrote: The only person that's caused you harm is you, not any member here...
It was a joint effort, I wouldn't have worried if that pdf link hadn't been there...
- Mal
mal4mac
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Re: Downloading books you have had physical copies of

Post by mal4mac »

daverupa wrote:Dhamma Wheel and related sites of the site owner are owned and operated out of the U.S. As such it comes under the guidelines of 47 US Code Section 230(c)(1), including the Communications Decency Act, which provides owners, administrators, moderators, and posters immunity from any content in here posted by someone else.
Has the UK agreed to abide by these guidelines? What if Oxford University Press decided to prosecute a UK based moderator? Can't see how US law would have any leverage at all in that situation...
- Mal
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