Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

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Jechbi
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Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Jechbi »

Is it generally appropriate to try to awaken hiri-ottappa in others through the practice of criticizing their behavior publicly? Personally, I think the answer is no. But I suspect many of us have tried to do this from time to time. Thoughts?
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Ben
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Ben »

Hi jechbi

I'm not sure how you'll be able to inspie hiri-ottappa in another by public criticism. You may instead be the vehicle of unwholesome mindstates like resentment and anger. Pouring gasoline on the fire, so to speak. My understanding is that hiri-ottappa arises from engaging in one's practice.
Having said that, if the behaviour of another member has been a concern to you, then perhaps the best course of action would be to express your concerns to the mod/admin team who will look into it.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Jechbi
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Ben. That's not why I created this thread. No specific concerns, nothing particularly troubling me. I appreciate your asking, though.

From a general discussion standpoint, however, I've observed that sometimes it seems like we try to change others behavior through the process of criticism (I know I've done this sometimes), be it in the workplace, or in the family, or on a discussion board like this. And often our criticism may be accurate. And sometimes it might even help to awaken a more productive self-awareness in another. But like you, I agree that most of time time we're just pouring gas on the fire.

Still, we find ourselves criticising others. So I thought I'd toss it out there for discussion.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by kc2dpt »

Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it isn't. Did you expect any other answer? ;)
I suggest reading MN 58 for more on the topic of saying disagreeable things for the benefit of others.
- Peter

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Jechbi
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Peter. Here's a translation from Access to Insight.
Peter wrote:Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it isn't. Did you expect any other answer? ;)
No, not really. I'd be interested in hearing more about those times when people feel it is appropriate. What do we hope to accomplish, and are we likely to accomplish it? etc.

One great thing about the sutta you cite is the emphasis on timing. Even if we say something true, if we say it at the wrong time, it's probably not helpful. Your comment, however, is well-timed.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by kc2dpt »

Jechbi wrote:I'd be interested in hearing more about those times when people feel it is appropriate.
I'd say if I thought the person respected my opinion and responded well to criticism, then it can be appropriate.

Keep in mind that public criticism isn't always for the benefit of the one being criticized. In a public forum such as this one often it is for the benefit of those reading and not participating. Those people see what gets criticized and what doesn't and that can be helpful to them.
- Peter

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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Pannapetar »

If I understand the Pali terms correctly, they mean (moral) shame and fear. Insofar, the phrase "inspiring fear and shame" is an oxymoron, because that would be the very opposite of inspiration, namely "de-inspiration", instilling, or deterring. Fire and brimstone spring to mind, Avici hell and such. In several Asian countries, including Thailand, there are amusement parks where visitors can find "edification" by walking through life reconstructions of the various narayas (hell realms). I suppose these parks are created with exactly the intention the thread starter had in mind. To be honest, I doubt this sort of thing is effective. In fact, I would go further and say that instilling shame and fear -even if done with good intention- is very likely to be counterproductive and damaging. It sounds more like brainwashing than education. As an instructional method it's a poor choice, except perhaps for reaching the lowest levels of human intuition.

Cheers, Thomas
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Jechbi
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Jechbi »

Peter wrote:Keep in mind that public criticism isn't always for the benefit of the one being criticized. In a public forum such as this one often it is for the benefit of those reading and not participating. Those people see what gets criticized and what doesn't and that can be helpful to them.
That's true. It's interesting to consider the possibility that, in the workplace or in a public setting like a shopping center, for example, our criticism of another might become a form of theater we perform on behalf of a perceived benefit to those strangers around us. In that case, the person being criticized becomes a prop.

In the same manner, on a public board like this, is it possible that if we criticize a member, but the intended audience for our criticism is actually those who are reading but not participating, is it possible that the member being criticized then becomes a prop in our performance?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Jechbi
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Thomas,
Pannapetar wrote:... instilling shame and fear -even if done with good intention- is very likely to be counterproductive and damaging.
From the Access to Insight link provided in the OP:
Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Hiri is an innate sense of shame over moral transgression; ottappa is moral dread, fear of the results of wrongdoing. The Buddha calls these two states the bright guardians of the world (sukka lokapala). He gives them this designation because as long as these two states prevail in people's hearts the moral standards of the world remain intact, while when their influence wanes the human world falls into unabashed promiscuity and violence, becoming almost indistinguishable from the animal realm (Itiv. 42).
This suggests to me that to the extent we are in a position to infuence how another person might engage with the world, then if we are able to find a skillful way to help them develop these sukka lokapala, that's a good thing for them and good for all of us. Do you see it differently?
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by kc2dpt »

Pannapetar wrote:To be honest, I doubt this sort of thing is effective. In fact, I would go further and say that instilling shame and fear -even if done with good intention- is very likely to be counterproductive and damaging. It sounds more like brainwashing than education. As an instructional method it's a poor choice, except perhaps for reaching the lowest levels of human intuition.
I think this is a narrow-minded view. Some people benefit from external motivators like teaching of heaven and hell. Some people benefit from internal motivators like teaching of stress and peace. This was taught by the Buddha and also by today's psychologists. Perhaps you do not find teachings on heaven and hell beneficial but I think you go to far to say the things you've said above.

I also think it is somewhat insulting and rude. The Buddha taught hiri and otapa to be important and worthwhile. He also instilled shame and fear when he thought it appropriate. You are saying he engaged in brainwashing, that he gave teachings which were counterproductive and damaging, that it was a poor choice. I would think in a Buddhism forum one would show a little more respect to the Buddha.
- Peter

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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Pannapetar »

Jechbi wrote:This suggests to me that to the extent we are in a position to infuence how another person might engage with the world, then if we are able to find a skillful way to help them develop these sukka lokapala, that's a good thing for them and good for all of us. Do you see it differently?
Yes, I see this a bit differently. The analogy with the guardians by the Buddha is accurate. The problem is just as it is impossible to conjure "guardians", inspiring fear and shame does generally not cause the desired result. It is psychologically self-defeating. The "guardians" that the Buddha spoke of are -in my understanding- cognitive abilities, or rather the result of the cognitive ability to distinguish skilful (good) from unskilful (bad) behaviour. I don't know much Pali, but perhaps "ottapa" means something like "eschew" rather than fear, anxiety or phobia. It only makes sense to me in that meaning. One would eschew unskilful means. The thing with cognitive abilities in general is that they cannot be developed by fear and shame. That's a misunderstanding. It would be an example for unskilful means. Inspiring fear and shame constructs negative energy circuits that entail aversion and repression.
Peter wrote:You are saying he [the Buddha] engaged in brainwashing, that he gave teachings which were counterproductive and damaging, that it was a poor choice.
I think that is a bit of a hasty conclusion. I did not say that the Buddha engaged in brainwashing, but that fear and shame are used in brainwashing. Prime examples are politics and advertising. Politicians use fear frequently for their own ends to manipulate voters and to defeat their enemies (the fear of terrorism, fear of unemployment, fear of economic crisis, etc.). Examples for typical "shame" messages in the advertising industry are: If you don't use deodorant XYZ you smell like a wild boar. If you don't drink this diet drink, you look like one. There are countless other examples, but this has very little to do with the Buddha spoke of. The guardians that the Buddha spoke of are the result of the cognitive ability to understand the moral qualities of one's actions. The development of this ability needs to be nurtured by other means, primarily by developing the capacity of empathy - and of course by what is described in the eightfold path.

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Ben »

Hi Thomas

I disagree with your assertion that the generation of ottappa means the generation of negativity.
Ottappa: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :4434.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ottappa (nt.) [fr. tappati1 + ud, would corresp. to a Sk. form *auttapya fr. ut -- tapya to be regretted, tormented by remorse. The BSk. form is a wrong adaptation of the Pāli form, taking o˚ for apa˚, viz. apatrapya M Vastu iii. 53 and apatrapā ibid. i.463. Müller, P. Gr. & Fausböll, Sutta Nipāta Index were both misled by the BSk. form, as also recently Kern, Toev. s. v.] fear of exile, shrinking back from doing wrong, remorse. See on term and its distinction from hiri (shame) Dhs trsl. 20, also DhsA 124, 126; Vism 8, 9 and the definition at SnA 181. Ottappa generally goes with hiri as one of the 7 noble treasures (see ariya -- dhanā). Hiri -- ottappa It 36; J i.129; hir -- ottappa at M i.271; S ii.220; v.1; A ii.78; iv.99, 151; v.214; It 34; J i.127, 206; VvA 23. See also hiri. -- Further passages: D iii.212; M i.356; S ii.196, 206, 208; v.89; A i.50, 83, 95; iii.4 sq., 352; iv.11; v.123 sq.; Pug 71; Dhs 147, 277; Nett 39. -- anottappa (nt.) lack of conscience, unscrupulousness, disregard of morality A i.50, 83, 95; iii.421; v.146, 214; Vbh 341, 359, 370, 391; as adj. It 34 (ahirika +).
-- gāravatā respect for conscience, A iii.331; iv.29. -- dhana the treasure of (moral) self -- control D iii.163, 251, 282; VvA 113. -- bala the power of a (good) conscience D iii.253; Ps ii.169, 176; Dhs 31, 102 (trln. power of the fear of blame).
Our own experience in the past is that the generation of remorse, the 'shrinking from doing wrong' may have indeed be associated with unwholesome mindstates such as aversion and gross fear as a result of the coarising vedanas. But i think its a mistake to make the assumption that the same is true for something like ottappa or, for that matter, samvega. Vedana is an unreliable indicator of whether a particular attitude is wholesome or unwholesome.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by Pannapetar »

I am sorry Ben, but can we speak English rather than Pali? - Remorse is certainly different from shame.

Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

This may be of interest:

Hiri Ottappa - Ajahn Jayasaro
http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/01/hi ... asaro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others

Post by rowyourboat »

Hiri and otappa are certainly very interesting mind states. Shame is a useful thing - not to be engaged in forever and ever but for it to arise when we are about to do something wrong- it will divert us towards something wholesome. Fear is also a useful thing in very much the same way- not from eternal hell but rather from negative consequences in this life, from negative mind states. These two friends can spare us a lot of suffering. It is said the non-returners (those who have completed 75% of the path to enlightenment) must have hiri and otappa.

I think in the west we tend to approach it in the way we approach guilt and commandments, in Christianity- hence the strong words- the baggage still carried. There is no such thing in the dhamma and would be seen as counter productive and prolonged shame and fear would be akusla/unskillful. Shame and fear has gone out of fashion in the west, but perhaps only in the last 50-60 decades- so lets not think it was always the case.

I think the more intellectual can hopefully see the positives of being moral and engage in that (even though being intellectual doesnt gaurantee that as we can see from history). But I think for the less intellectual it can be a good motivator to be good. It would be interesting to see what would happen in the 'intellectual west' if all the laws were lifted for a month and anyone could do anything that they liked without fear of a criminal record. Sometimes we convince ourselves that looking at the positive side of being moral is the best way forward, when there are things like laws and obligations within which we have to act. We need to understand the contribution of the latter as well.

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