the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Which makes this even sadder, doing an injustice to Huang Po himself by not carefully understanding his words, his contexts, using his words and Ajahn Chah's words as away of trying to shut down any opposing point of view in regard literal rebirth.
Which I wasnt doing

:?

I did say that what I posted didnt detract from the Three lifetimes model

As I said you seem stuck in past perceptions
So, actually, you are saying that literal rebirth teachings are in fact found in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:All I was pointing to, which seems to have generated such aversion, is awareness in the here and now ... to mindfulness
There is not a thing wrong with awareness in the here and now, but how you used Huang Po and Ajahn Chah's words here http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p255954 in the context of the ongoing debate, that is a problem.

I used it in the sense of being aware of how this debate causes dukkha via clinging to doctrines

And how letting "the one who knows" come to be in the here and now, all disputes can be put to use as a source of learning Dhamma ... and then put to side :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:All I was pointing to, which seems to have generated such aversion, is awareness in the here and now ... to mindfulness
There is not a thing wrong with awareness in the here and now, but how you used Huang Po and Ajahn Chah's words here http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 60#p255954 in the context of the ongoing debate, that is a problem.

I used it in the sense of being aware of how this debate causes dukkha via clinging to doctrines
Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?
And how letting "the one who knows" come to be in the here and now, all disputes can be put to use as a source of learning Dhamma ... and then put to side
And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Which makes this even sadder, doing an injustice to Huang Po himself by not carefully understanding his words, his contexts, using his words and Ajahn Chah's words as away of trying to shut down any opposing point of view in regard literal rebirth.
Which I wasnt doing

:?

I did say that what I posted didnt detract from the Three lifetimes model

As I said you seem stuck in past perceptions :juggling:
So, actually, you are saying that literal rebirth teachings are in fact found in the suttas.

It doesnt matter to me because regardless of if there is rebirth or not, this life is anatta and so is the next

This moment is dukkha If there is ignorance, and so is the next moment, let alone the next life. Yet if "Buddho" is strong enough, then there is no birth into tomorrow let alone another 1000 years :)

So if there is rebirth then I would have to practice the same as if there is was no rebirth

I read it there, yet I dont

But yet it doest matter to me
Now we come to the most important matter. The Buddha said that, "I teach only one thing: dukkha
and the quenching of dukkha." That is what all the teachings are about, dukkha and the quenching of
dukkha. He didn't talk about other things. Whether or not there is rebirth is not the fundamental question,
because once one is born here and now, there is dukkha like this and it must be quenched like this. Even if
you are born again, dukkha is like this and must be quenched in the same way. Why bother talking about
birth or no birth? Talk only about how dukkha arises and how dukkha is quenched. Just this is already
enough. For this reason the Buddha taught anattā. Once anattā is fully realized, there is no dukkha. When
there is no attā, dukkha isn't born, anymore. Therefore, he taught the quenching of dukkha, that is, he
taught this matter of not-self. The teaching of anattā is essential for the ending of dukkha. Arguments and
discussions about whether there is rebirth or not area waste of time. Whether "it" will be born or not, there
is still this business of quenching dukkha like this. It's better to speak about this quenching of dukkha
instead. This quenching of dukkha is the fact that there is no attā, is understanding that everything is
anattā. (33)
We can conclude by saying that if you understand anattā correctly and truly, then you will discover
for yourself that there is no rebirth and no reincarnation. The matter is finished
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ebirth.pdf
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?
I'm talking about how we react to an idea, a thought, a feeling... and using that for wisdom

And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?
I have no disagreement with them, because all that matters is the here and now

As Ajahn Sumedho taught a Dhamma Friend of mine :)

The vision of rebirth should be let go of, just as the thought of "I dont like rebirth", as does the feeling of like of aversion to the idea of rebirth

Once again just be aware of concepts as they rise and fall, without grasping anything :)

No need to prove theories
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:

It doesnt matter to me because regardless of if there is rebirth or not, this life is anatta and so is the next
Methinks thou dost protest too much, as your very msg and quoting Ven Buddhadasa shows. You have simply tried a different tactic for to shut down the idea of literal rebirth being taught in the suttas.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

And If I make speak bodly Tilt, It seems you need rebirth (as a hell being after death etc)

Instead of being at peace with or without it being real

For me it doesnt matter either way, my practice is the same
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Methinks thou dost protest too much, as your very msg and quoting Ven Buddhadasa shows. You have simply tried a different tactic for to shut down the idea of literal rebirth being taught in the suttas.
Not at all

I just said that If rebirth is true, the next life we would need to practice the same as we would need to do now :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.

Take it as you will, I realize he is from Zen and this is a Theravada forum

Yet I doubt you can deny that he does teach non-clinging there :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?
I'm talking about how we react to an idea, a thought, a feeling... and using that for wisdom

And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?
I have no disagreement with them, because all that matters is the here and now
Again, you make my point.
No need to prove theories
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?
Twas a post in response you your last post :spy:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:And If I make speak bodly Tilt, It seems you need rebirth (as a hell being after death etc)

Instead of being at peace with or without it being real

For me it doesnt matter either way, my practice is the same
Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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