the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:28 am

Methinks thou dost protest too much, as your very msg and quoting Ven Buddhadasa shows. You have simply tried a different tactic for to shut down the idea of literal rebirth being taught in the suttas.


Not at all

I just said that If rebirth is true, the next life we would need to practice the same as we would need to do now :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:30 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.



Take it as you will, I realize he is from Zen and this is a Theravada forum

Yet I doubt you can deny that he does teach non-clinging there :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:30 am

clw_uk wrote:
Which doctrines are you talking about? Literal rebirth, or your symbolic rebirth?


I'm talking about how we react to an idea, a thought, a feeling... and using that for wisdom


And how do you know that those who accept literal rebirth have not let "the one who knows" speak clearly and precisely?


I have no disagreement with them, because all that matters is the here and now
Again, you make my point.

No need to prove theories
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?


Twas a post in response you your last post :spy:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:34 am

clw_uk wrote:And If I make speak bodly Tilt, It seems you need rebirth (as a hell being after death etc)

Instead of being at peace with or without it being real

For me it doesnt matter either way, my practice is the same
Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:34 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?


Twas a post in response you your last post
Typically nonresponsive.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:37 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.



Take it as you will, I realize he is from Zen and this is a Theravada forum

Yet I doubt you can deny that he does teach non-clinging there :)
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:39 am

The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.


Which is?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:40 am

Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?


Entangled with what? I assume you mean "rebirth"

As I said It doesnt matter to me either way :) xxx :candle:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:41 am

The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.


What is his view?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:43 am

clw_uk wrote:
Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?


Entangled with what? I assume you mean "rebirth"
Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.

As I said It doesnt matter to me either way
And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:44 am

I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.


Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:47 am

clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.


What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:47 am

Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.


Once again thats your perception of what I am doing :)

And the "here and now/One Mind" talk." is pretty standard teaching that you find at my local monastery (Amaravati)


And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.


But once again thats a perception you have, you dont know my mind state friend :)

And even if I was pouring energy into arguing against you, that just proves my point that view points cause dukkha :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.


What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.


But what it his view?
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:50 am

The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.

But what it his view?


How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself? :shrug:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:50 am

clw_uk wrote:
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.


Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:51 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.


What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.


Focus on the present moment :)
“Happy is the man who has broken the chains which hurt the mind, and has given up worrying once and for all.” Ovid
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:53 am

Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.


Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either way

So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

That impacts my practice .... 0 :thumbsup:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:53 am

clw_uk wrote:
Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.


Once again thats your perception of what I am doing :)

And the "here and now/One Mind" talk." is pretty standard teaching that you find at my local monastery (Amaravati)
That's nice, but it still does not change the fact that literal rebirth, as a teaching of the Buddha, is found in the suttas.


And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.


But once again thats a perception you have, you dont know my mind state friend
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.

[quoteAnd even if I was pouring energy into arguing against you, that just proves my point that view points cause dukkha[/quote]So, you are suffering? I am not. I am rather enjoying this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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