the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Seem to have focused to much on attacking me for attacking rebirth , which I wasnt doing

As I said all i posted was concerned with the present moment and how Buddha can manifest here and now which is a useful teaching for some, but obviously not for you, which is fine
Okay, and the point of that is, in the context of this ongoing debate?
Twas a post in response you your last post
Typically nonresponsive.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.

Take it as you will, I realize he is from Zen and this is a Theravada forum

Yet I doubt you can deny that he does teach non-clinging there :)
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
Which is?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
Entangled with what? I assume you mean "rebirth"

As I said It doesnt matter to me either way :) xxx :candle:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Speaking boldly speaks a fair amount more about thee than me. The question is, why are you so entangled with this, so obviously caught up trying repeatedly to make your point? That is your practice?
Entangled with what? I assume you mean "rebirth"
Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.
As I said It doesnt matter to me either way
And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.
Once again thats your perception of what I am doing :)

And the "here and now/One Mind" talk." is pretty standard teaching that you find at my local monastery (Amaravati)

And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.
But once again thats a perception you have, you dont know my mind state friend :)

And even if I was pouring energy into arguing against you, that just proves my point that view points cause dukkha :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
But what it his view?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.

But what it his view?
How can you argue against my view of what his view is, if you dont know what your view of his view is yourself? :shrug:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
I am not arguing that rebirth is true or not; rather, I am simply pointing out it is found as a literal teaching in the suttas, as has been repeatedly and clearly demonstrated in this thread. Your appeal to the here and now is beside the point and perfect example of the NOT here and now.
Doesnt Buddha say that liberation is here and now?

That would stand regardless of if rebirth happens post mortem (which I dont care about, but you seem too :/) because of the three marks existing regardless ...
Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
The problem is that you cannot even be consistent in your use of Huang Po. You are using him to further your point of view.
What is his view?
The issue is not what is his view; it is what you are trying to do with his words, which has been pointed out to your repeatedly and which you are trying to ignore.
Focus on the present moment :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Again, your appeal to the "here and now" is beside the point. No one is denying the "here and now" practice that the Buddha taught, but it was taught within a larger context, part of which is a teaching of literal rebirth. But you keep trying to dodge this.
Not at all, As I said it doest matter to me either way

So you can prove it all you want, the practice is still the same for me

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

That impacts my practice .... 0 :thumbsup:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Entangled with your trying make your point all the while trying down play the literal teaching of rebirth in the suttas with this "here and now/One Mind" talk.
Once again thats your perception of what I am doing :)

And the "here and now/One Mind" talk." is pretty standard teaching that you find at my local monastery (Amaravati)
That's nice, but it still does not change the fact that literal rebirth, as a teaching of the Buddha, is found in the suttas.

And that is hardly believable given the amount of energy you are pouring into this exchange, trying to defend your position.
But once again thats a perception you have, you dont know my mind state friend
I am not making a comment about your state of mind. I am commenting on what is physically obvious.

[quoteAnd even if I was pouring energy into arguing against you, that just proves my point that view points cause dukkha[/quote]So, you are suffering? I am not. I am rather enjoying this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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