the great rebirth debate

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:42 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:So we can agree then, via your continuous dodge, that you havent a clue what Huang Po meant

And so you previous posts are, shall we say, spurious at best
Your opinion on this matter matters not to me. This, however, is a good thing:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



:shrug:

All that matters is that beings use the teachings to let go of the here and now, all concepts and views

Wisdom is found in being aware of feelings of aversion of attraction when we are greeted with the concept of rebirth :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:43 am

clw_uk wrote:
"If you students of the Way wish to become Buddhas, you need study no doctrines whatever, but learn only how to avoid seeking for and attaching yourselves to anything" Zen Master Huang Po
Huang Po's doctrine.





Ajahn Chah

The heart of the path is SO simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.
Ajahn Chah explained.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.
Ajahn Chah explained.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:45 am

clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:So we can agree then, via your continuous dodge, that you havent a clue what Huang Po meant

And so you previous posts are, shall we say, spurious at best
Your opinion on this matter matters not to me. This, however, is a good thing:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



All that matters is that beings use the teachings to let go of the here and now, all concepts and views

Wisdom is found in being aware of feelings of aversion of attraction when we are greeted with the concept of rebirth
Also, it probably doesn't hurt to accurately, as possible, portray the Buddha's teachings.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:46 am

So do not "become" someone who accepts rebirth

Neither "become" someone who rejects it

Nor "become" someone who doesnt care about it

Rather be Buddha-nature, be aware of the view as it arises, be aware of the feelings that arise in connection with it and see how the feelings of like, dislike or indifference are anicce, dukkha and anatta

:D

Or grasp or avert from rebirth and fall into mara's trap :rolleye:
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:51 am

clw_uk wrote:So do not "become" someone who accepts rebirth

Neither "become" someone who rejects it

Nor "become" someone who doesnt care about it

Rather be Buddha-nature, be aware of the view as it arises, be aware of the feelings that arise in connection with it and see how the feelings of like, dislike or indifference are anicce, dukkha and anatta



Or grasp or avert from rebirth and fall into mara's trap
But the Buddha did teach it. And, as he said, he taught only what is true and useful (MN 58).
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:53 am

Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:55 am

But the Buddha did teach it. And, as he said, he taught only what is true and useful (MN 58).


Well it is true and useful

True as in rebirth of "Me" and useful because we can you it to see the jati of "me"

And as I said, if this carries on past physical death, we need to practice the same

And that life is not mine, just as the next second is not mine

We would still need to rest in the original mind :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:58 am

clw_uk wrote:
But the Buddha did teach it. And, as he said, he taught only what is true and useful (MN 58).


Well it is true and useful

True as in rebirth of "Me" and useful because we can you it to see the jati of "me"

And as I said, if this carries on past physical death, we need to practice the same

And that life is not mine, just as the next second is not mine

We would still need to rest in the original mind :)
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.

Anyway, as far as the Buddha is concerned, it is useful and true that

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 6:59 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!



Unless we rest in the here and now and give rise to Buddha-Nature

That is we strengthen awareness, so that it is unbroken and we see dhammas as they are, and then Buddha/Original Mind, our true home, manifests

Then we simply are "That" and so there is no "me" and so no "birth" of "me" and so there is "deathless", Nirvana :broke:


"I" will only be "born" If I don't understand contact and feelings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:02 am

Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.


Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?

Even if he was, these are just concepts we just to realise non-attachment

Anyway, as far as the Buddha is concerned, it is useful and true that


Of course :) xxx
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:03 am

clw_uk wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!



Unless we rest in the here and now and give rise to Buddha-Nature
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:04 am

clw_uk wrote:
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.


Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?
Do you know anything about his Mahayana influences?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:08 am

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



For me

Sumedho

The only thing that’s certain about the future—the death of the body—is something we try to ignore. Just thinking about the word death stops the mind, doesn’t it? It does for me. It’s not particularly polite or politically correct to speak of death in casual conversation. What is death? What will happen when I die? Not knowing upsets us. But it is unknown, isn’t it? We don’t know what will happen when the body dies.

We have various theories—like reincarnation or being rewarded by a better rebirth or being punished by a worse birth. Some people speculate that once you’ve attained human birth, you may still be reborn as a lower creature. And then there’s the school that says no, once you’ve taken birth in the human form, then you cannot be reborn as a lower creature. Or the belief in oblivion—once you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s it. Nothing left. Finito. The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows. So we often just ignore it or suppress it.

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.



http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nd_Now.htm
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:09 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.


Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?
Do you know anything about his Mahayana influences?



It doesnt matter to me as long as a teaching aims at non-attachment
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:15 am

[/quote]How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.[/quote]

I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:18 am

So whether standing, walking, sitting or lying we should have sati to watch over and look after the mind. When we see external things it's like seeing internals. When we see internals it's the same as seeing externals. If we understand this then we can hear the teaching of the Buddha. If we understand this, then we can say that Buddha-nature, the 'one who knows', has been established. It knows the external. It knows the internal. It understands all things which arise.


Understanding like this, then sitting at the foot of a tree we hear the Buddha's teaching. Standing, walking, sitting or lying, we hear the Buddha's teaching. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking, we hear the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha is just this 'one who knows' within this very mind. It knows the Dhamma, it investigates the Dhamma.


It's not that the Buddha who lived so long ago comes to talk to us, but this Buddha-nature, the 'one who knows' arises. The mind becomes illumined.


http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Opening_Dhamma_Eye1.php
Last edited by clw_uk on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:19 am

clw_uk wrote:
So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



For me

Sumedho
I like Ven Sumedho. I learned a lot from the time I got to spend with him in Thailand, especially at Wat Ba Pong in 1974. But I'll take the Buddha in the suttas, and as we know:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:22 am

clw_uk wrote:
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.


I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"
Okay, so what you are giving us is an idiosyncratic "Buddha-nature." I'll take, and if I am going to use buddha-nature, I'll stick to the Madhyamaka version of it.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby clw_uk » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:22 am

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



For me

Sumedho
I like Ven Sumedho. I learned a lot from the time I got to spend with him in Thailand, especially at Wat Ba Pong in 1974. But I'll take the Buddha in the suttas, and as we know:

    So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas



Buddha isn't found in books :)
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:26 am

clw_uk wrote:

Buddha isn't found in books :)
The suttas are not just "books."
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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