the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Much more than likely you are going to be reborn, whether you believe it is going to happen, or believe it won't, isn't going to change anything, its just going to happen!!

Unless we rest in the here and now and give rise to Buddha-Nature
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.
Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?
Do you know anything about his Mahayana influences?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

For me

Sumedho
The only thing that’s certain about the future—the death of the body—is something we try to ignore. Just thinking about the word death stops the mind, doesn’t it? It does for me. It’s not particularly polite or politically correct to speak of death in casual conversation. What is death? What will happen when I die? Not knowing upsets us. But it is unknown, isn’t it? We don’t know what will happen when the body dies.

We have various theories—like reincarnation or being rewarded by a better rebirth or being punished by a worse birth. Some people speculate that once you’ve attained human birth, you may still be reborn as a lower creature. And then there’s the school that says no, once you’ve taken birth in the human form, then you cannot be reborn as a lower creature. Or the belief in oblivion—once you’re dead, you’re dead. That’s it. Nothing left. Finito. The truth of the matter is that nobody really knows. So we often just ignore it or suppress it.

But this is all happening in the now. We’re thinking of the concept of death in the present. The way the word death affects consciousness is like this. This is knowing not knowing in the now. It’s not trying to prove any theory. It’s knowing: the breath is like this; the body like this; the moods and mental states are like this. This is developing the path. Saying “like this” is just a way of reminding oneself to see this moment as it is rather than to be caught in some idea that we’ve got to do something or find something or control something or get rid of something.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... nd_Now.htm
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Original mind. Another Mahayana concept.
Was Ajahn Chan a "Mahayanist s" for using the concept "original mind"?
Do you know anything about his Mahayana influences?

It doesnt matter to me as long as a teaching aims at non-attachment
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

[/quote]How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.[/quote]

I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

So whether standing, walking, sitting or lying we should have sati to watch over and look after the mind. When we see external things it's like seeing internals. When we see internals it's the same as seeing externals. If we understand this then we can hear the teaching of the Buddha. If we understand this, then we can say that Buddha-nature, the 'one who knows', has been established. It knows the external. It knows the internal. It understands all things which arise.


Understanding like this, then sitting at the foot of a tree we hear the Buddha's teaching. Standing, walking, sitting or lying, we hear the Buddha's teaching. Seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching and thinking, we hear the Buddha's teaching. The Buddha is just this 'one who knows' within this very mind. It knows the Dhamma, it investigates the Dhamma.


It's not that the Buddha who lived so long ago comes to talk to us, but this Buddha-nature, the 'one who knows' arises. The mind becomes illumined.
http://www.ajahnchah.org/book/Opening_Dhamma_Eye1.php
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

For me

Sumedho
I like Ven Sumedho. I learned a lot from the time I got to spend with him in Thailand, especially at Wat Ba Pong in 1974. But I'll take the Buddha in the suttas, and as we know:
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.
I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"
Okay, so what you are giving us is an idiosyncratic "Buddha-nature." I'll take, and if I am going to use buddha-nature, I'll stick to the Madhyamaka version of it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

For me

Sumedho
I like Ven Sumedho. I learned a lot from the time I got to spend with him in Thailand, especially at Wat Ba Pong in 1974. But I'll take the Buddha in the suttas, and as we know:
  • So ok yeah, there is literal rebirth in the Suttas

Buddha isn't found in books :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:

Buddha isn't found in books :)
The suttas are not just "books."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
How are you using this word? Is there a reason why you need to use Mahayana jargon here. Maybe Dharma Wheel or Zen Forum International might be a better fit for you.
I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"
Okay, so what you are giving us is an idiosyncratic "Buddha-nature." I'll take, and if I am going to use buddha-nature, I'll stick to the Madhyamaka version of it.

Okey Doke :smile:

The words dont matter, as long as we dont cling to them :)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

[quote

I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge[/quote]
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by lyndon taylor »


I use it because it's used in the Thai Theravada Teachings I recieve

Buddha-Nature is the "one who knows"

That is awareness, "intuitive awareness" as Ajahn Sumedho puts it

The one who accepts everything, sees everything and wants and rejects nothing

The true refuge
I would most certainly expect any Ajahn that "sees everything', to have a firm belief in literal rebirth, as it would be quite clear and self evident to him.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:

Buddha isn't found in books :)
The suttas are not just "books."

Reading the words wont give you meaning

You can read about the pleasure of cocaine without experiencing it

The words of the Canon point to being aware, to experience their meaning

You can read about dukkha, cessation, birth and kamma all you want but without experiencing them, you dont understand them

Just like you can read about refuge in Buddha all you want, but until you know Buddha-Nature, you dont know true refuge
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Having done cocaine once many years ago, in my present state for me to do it again I could only think of horrible and unpleasant suffering. Suffering is only pleasant when you're completely imprisoned in Samsara.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
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