Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:56 am

Tachibana wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Tachibana wrote:
It has been 2 almost years since I discovered the Dhamma, I'll say it franckly : those who utter that time is needed to achieve the noble fruits are the ones who haven't achieved anything yet because of their wrong practice.
This is where you start disqualifying yourself here. Unless you are claiming iddhis, you do not know what others have achieved. And, of course, who knows what you have achieved? The problem with such self promotion is that it is self promotion. As pointed out, you do yourself no favors by such self-credentialing as the first thing it is you say on a forum. Maybe what you say is true, but quite frankly, it is far better shown that claimed.



What I was trying to say is that the Fruit arises immediately after the Path... so if your practice didn't bear any Fruit yet it means that you're not "walking" the Path, and so your practice is wrong.
And what sort of time frame are we looking at here for one's practice to bear fruit?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:07 am

Do you know about the 17 thoughts moments ?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#citta

It's not written in this AbhiDhamma version, but when you're about to reach enlightenment, the Path is the 5th Javana moment and 2 or 3 (depending on your insight) Fruits will follow as the 6th and 7th javana moment.

So theoratically, you'll get a Fruit about less than 0.1s after having "walked" the Path.

What I'm saying is that if you need time, it means you need to time to reach the Path, and so your practice is "wrong".
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:11 am

Tachibana wrote:Do you know about the 17 thoughts moments ?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#citta

It's not written in this AbhiDhamma version, but when you're about to reach enlightenment, the Path is the 5th Javana moment and 2 or 3 (depending on your insight) Fruits will follow as the 6th and 7th javana moment.

So theoratically, you'll get a Fruit about less than 0.1s after having "walked" the Path.

What I'm saying is that if you need time, it means you need to time to reach the Path, and so your practice is "wrong".
Now, you are being less than clear. So, according to you, if it is right path, then one should "get Fruit" "about less than 0.1s" after starting.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:23 am

Well I could give a link of the AbhiDhamma version I took this from, but I'm not sure that you understand French...

Anyway, the Fruit arises immediately after having reached the Path, that's the very basis of causality, well you already know that even Arahants are subject to cause and effect, don't you ?

If they weren't subject to causality, then no realization would be possible.
Last edited by Tachibana on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:25 am

Tachibana wrote:Well I could give a link of the AbhiDhamma version I took this from, but I'm not sure that you understand French...

Anyway, the Fruit arises immediately after having reached the Path, that's the very basis of causality, well you already know that even Arahants are subject to cause and effect, don't you ?

If they weren't subject to causality, then no realization would be possible.
The question is, of course, how should it take to reach the Path?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:29 am

The Fruit (the lack of craving) results from the Path (the elimination of craving), the Path results from insight (to the 4 nobles truths), insight results from vipassanaa (which is paying attention to dukkha).

Now I'm going to reiterate what I previously said : if you don't pay attention to your own emotions (suffering from lost etc), you'll never realize any Fruit.

The greater your suffering is, the greater your will to end it is, and so the greater your concentration will be.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:37 am

Tachibana wrote:The Fruit (the lack of craving) results from the Path (the elimination of craving), the Path results from insight (to the 4 nobles truths), insight results from vipassanaa (which is paying attention to dukkha).

Now I'm going to reiterate what I previously said : if you don't pay attention to your own emotions (suffering from lost etc), you'll never realize any Fruit.

The greater your suffering is, the greater your will to end it is, and so the greater your concentration will be.
And, no matter how great the drive, might it still not take some time to reach the levels of Fruit and Path?
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:39 am

I'm going to step in here and recommend a good psychiatrist, I know just the path you're on, from personal experience, and it involves psychosis, and often ends in hospitalization. Seeing a doctor now will help you stay out of hospital and will not make you lose you're revelation, If you don't get help and end up in the hospital; by the time they're done with you you won't remember any of this, seriously get some help. IMHO
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:55 am

I have to warn you, I've found the cause of most of the fails in vipassanaa practice :

If suffering isn't great enough, the will to end it will be weak, and so there'll be no concentration.
If suffering is too great, the will to end it will be strong, and so concentration will be correct.

However, when concentration arises, the previous thoughts are stilled, and so it is impossible to remember the Dhamma while practicing true vipassanaa.

So how did I succeed ?
As I said, the anime's rules are very similar to the samsaraa's rules.
So the "deletion" of the protagonist I was attached to reminded me of nibbaana.

"her nibbaana was the cause of my suffering" : this is what I understood.
"she'll never come back, so I must end up sadness"
"I have 3 options : either I forget her, either I just keep her in my mind, either I realize nibbaana"

Whereas the 1st two options are ultimately useless, the 3rd option rouse because I precisely though of nibbaana earlier.

"nibbaana is the highest peace", "nibbaana" is the lack of craving".

And so the Fruit followed the Path, which itself followed insight.

Insight is not the Path, insight is what leads us to the Path.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:02 am

Tachibana wrote:I have to warn you, . . .
Interesting, however, you have not addressed my question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:32 am

Well, I don't really understand what you mean since I though that I was clear enough.

Never mind I'll explain it again :

There are 4 reasons of failure in Dhamma practice :
- pretending to practice while actually not practicing
- the murder of our own parents, it is said to impede us to find the Path
- practicing vipassanaa while trying to put aside the very emotions we are supposed to observe
- practicing vipassanaa but not taking the 3rd option (the Path, which leads to the Fruit)

The last one may be due to lack of faith or not seeing that the 1rst and 2nd options (forgetting suffering and keeping our lost object in our mind) are ultimately useless, faith is necessary to reach the Sotaapana stage.


So insight, the Path and the Fruit will arise in a single mental event if the vipassanaa practice is correct.
The only thing you've to care about are the 5 precepts, the knowledge of the core of the Dhamma (4 nobles truths, 12 nidana, 3 characteristics and nibbaana) and the attention to your own emotions.


In addition, I'd like to show you what is realization.
The 1rst three nidana are Ignorance, Fabrications and Consciousness.
Insight is the end of Ignorance, the Path is the end of Fabrications and the Fruit is the Unborn Consciousness.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:38 am

Tachibana wrote:Well, I don't really understand what you mean since I though that I was clear enough.

Never mind I'll explain it again :

There are 4 reasons of failure in Dhamma practice :
I am not talking about failure. I am talking about the fact that it may take an individual some time to reach the level of insight that leads to awakening. That it may take some time is not failure, but you do not seem to address this.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:44 am

manas wrote:Hi Tachibana

don't take offense, but if case you have not already noticed, it isn't really 'the done thing' to suddenly announce a higher attainment on a Buddhist Forum one has just joined, to relative strangers. It's not that you have done anything wrong, rather it's a sort of unspoken etiquette here, do you know what I mean?

I will be honest with you: it sounds to me like you have had a very emotionally striking experience that has stirred something in you, and that you now feel more convinced of the Dhamma as a result, but have overestimated. That can happen to any of us. So, I would be cautious about interpreting it as a Noble attainment too quickly. After all, if just to become a sotapanna one must usually strive with quite a bit of energy and commitment, how much more challenging would it be to attain sakadagami? Practitioners spend entire lives in monasteries, secluded, abstaining from sensual pleasures, meditating much, renouncing so much that we layfolk habitually enjoy, just to experience the Noble attainments. I agree that they are attainable in this day and age, and even for us layfolk as well (if we apply ourselves diligently enough), but I do not think they are quite that easily stumbled upon.

kind regards
manas
:anjali:

:goodpost:

I take back my sarcastic replies if they caused any harm.

But I do stand behind the Ajahn Anan quote I posted: it is so easy to mistake ourselves having attained something. And that can be very hurtful for our future practice. Tachibana how you describe your insights sounds like it moved you, but doesn't sound to me to be paths/fruits, so please reconsider. An emotional episode and a thought about nibbana doesn't make one sotapanna and a lessening of sense desire and hate doesn't make one once-returner. If that were so, almost all practicing Buddhists would be, because lessening of those things happens naturally, already before any major insight.

For your own benefit, don't fix yourself into things like these. It can only do harm.
Last edited by reflection on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:46 am

Well said, Reflection.
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:49 am

You don't seem to understand why I call "taking some time" a failure :

As the Buddha said, human life is very precious, and no one knows (without the abhinna) when it'll end.
Also as long as you don't reach at least the Sotaapana stage you won't be sure that you'll one day realize the Arahant Fruit.

If you don't see "not walking the Path" as a failure, then it means that you enjoy your actual life, which is an error since the Buddha uttered that the 5 aggregates are born from dukkha (which results from craving) and that they'll lead to dukkha if you don't "walk the path".

Respecting the 5 precepts only do not make us lazy, however not seeing the danger makes us lazy.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby chownah » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:01 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
chownah wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
The Ven. Khemaka is indirectly claiming to be a "non-returner" (anaagaamii). To lay claim, even truthfully, to higher attainments is an offense. To do so, knowing the claim would be false, would be a paaraajika offense involving irrevocable expulsion from the Sangha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

I think this is for monks....I think Tachibana is not a monk.
chownah


The quote refers to monks, but lay people are no more supposed to talk about attainments, real or imagined any more than actual monk are not allowed. If you were to talk privately to a monk or friend about your "attainment" it may not be such a sin, but announcing it to the world, may be possible but highly not recommended, acoording to the teachings.

I believe you are mistaken. Can you show a reference that supports the idea that lay people are not supposed to talk publicly about attainment......if I'm wrong I would like to know.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:01 am

Tachibana wrote:You don't seem to understand why I call "taking some time" a failure :

As the Buddha said, human life is very precious, and no one knows (without the abhinna) when it'll end.
Also as long as you don't reach at least the Sotaapana stage you won't be sure that you'll one day realize the Arahant Fruit.

If you don't see "not walking the Path" as a failure, then it means that you enjoy your actual life, which is an error since the Buddha uttered that the 5 aggregates are born from dukkha (which results from craving) and that they'll lead to dukkha if you don't "walk the path".

Respecting the 5 precepts only do not make us lazy, however not seeing the danger makes us lazy.
So, some one who is working very hard -- as hard as they can --, following the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha's Path, has not yet reached a degree of awakening, that person is a failure.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:03 am

reflection wrote:
manas wrote:Hi Tachibana

I take back my sarcastic replies if they caused any harm.

But I do stand behind the Ajahn Anan quote I posted: it is so easy to mistake ourselves having attained something. And that can be very hurtful for our future practice. Tachibana how you describe your insights sounds like it moved you, but doesn't sound to me to be paths/fruits, so please reconsider. An emotional episode and a thought about nibbana doesn't make one sotapanna and a lessening of sense desire and hate doesn't make one once-returner. If that were so, almost all practicing Buddhists would be, because lessening of those things happens naturally, already before any major insight.

For your own benefit, don't fix yourself into things like these. It can only do harm.



Well if you find another one that has become asexual after a full vipassanaa day may be I'll reconsider.

All jokes aside, I already thought earlier that I attained enlightenment, however this thought disappeared when I understood that I was only in some jhaana state.

I can stay in jhaana without wishing it for 5 hours.
But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.
Also I don't remember having truly practiced jhaana for about 1 year and half.

I don't feel equanimity since I can feel pain and pleasure.
I don't feel rapture since I didn't reach the 1rst jhaana early.
I don't feel sukha since I'm actually not producing anything special.


Well as the Buddha said, you can not understand what is being an Ariyaa if you are not an Ariyaa.
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:15 am

Tachibana wrote:
reflection wrote:
manas wrote:Hi Tachibana

I take back my sarcastic replies if they caused any harm.

But I do stand behind the Ajahn Anan quote I posted: it is so easy to mistake ourselves having attained something. And that can be very hurtful for our future practice. Tachibana how you describe your insights sounds like it moved you, but doesn't sound to me to be paths/fruits, so please reconsider. An emotional episode and a thought about nibbana doesn't make one sotapanna and a lessening of sense desire and hate doesn't make one once-returner. If that were so, almost all practicing Buddhists would be, because lessening of those things happens naturally, already before any major insight.

For your own benefit, don't fix yourself into things like these. It can only do harm.



Well if you find another one that has become asexual after a full vipassanaa day may be I'll reconsider.
You don't need to prove yourself to me.
All jokes aside, I already thought earlier that I attained enlightenment, however this thought disappeared when I understood that I was only in some jhaana state.

I can stay in jhaana without wishing it for 5 hours.
But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.
Also I don't remember having truly practiced jhaana for about 1 year and half.

I don't feel equanimity since I can feel pain and pleasure.
I don't feel rapture since I didn't reach the 1rst jhaana early.
I don't feel sukha since I'm actually not producing anything special.


Well as the Buddha said, you can not understand what is being an Ariyaa if you are not an Ariyaa.

With all respect,

You don't need to prove yourself to me. I just said: for your own benefit reconsider. If you don't want to, that's your problem, not mine. This sounds harsh, but the main person you hurt if you are wrong is yourself. The Buddha also said a lot about delusion and about people who think they have attained things they didn't. It's quite common, actually, maybe even more common than the real "attainments". And well, it is a good way to screw up your entire practice from there on. Which I don't want for you to happen. I just say what I say because I care about you, not because I care about your claims. I hope you understand.

WIth metta,
:anjali:
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am

Tachibana wrote:But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.


So, to be clear - you are pretending you are a sakadagami.

Is that correct?
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

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