Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

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Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

Well, I don't really understand what you mean since I though that I was clear enough.

Never mind I'll explain it again :

There are 4 reasons of failure in Dhamma practice :
- pretending to practice while actually not practicing
- the murder of our own parents, it is said to impede us to find the Path
- practicing vipassanaa while trying to put aside the very emotions we are supposed to observe
- practicing vipassanaa but not taking the 3rd option (the Path, which leads to the Fruit)

The last one may be due to lack of faith or not seeing that the 1rst and 2nd options (forgetting suffering and keeping our lost object in our mind) are ultimately useless, faith is necessary to reach the Sotaapana stage.


So insight, the Path and the Fruit will arise in a single mental event if the vipassanaa practice is correct.
The only thing you've to care about are the 5 precepts, the knowledge of the core of the Dhamma (4 nobles truths, 12 nidana, 3 characteristics and nibbaana) and the attention to your own emotions.


In addition, I'd like to show you what is realization.
The 1rst three nidana are Ignorance, Fabrications and Consciousness.
Insight is the end of Ignorance, the Path is the end of Fabrications and the Fruit is the Unborn Consciousness.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:Well, I don't really understand what you mean since I though that I was clear enough.

Never mind I'll explain it again :

There are 4 reasons of failure in Dhamma practice :
I am not talking about failure. I am talking about the fact that it may take an individual some time to reach the level of insight that leads to awakening. That it may take some time is not failure, but you do not seem to address this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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reflection
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by reflection »

manas wrote:Hi Tachibana

don't take offense, but if case you have not already noticed, it isn't really 'the done thing' to suddenly announce a higher attainment on a Buddhist Forum one has just joined, to relative strangers. It's not that you have done anything wrong, rather it's a sort of unspoken etiquette here, do you know what I mean?

I will be honest with you: it sounds to me like you have had a very emotionally striking experience that has stirred something in you, and that you now feel more convinced of the Dhamma as a result, but have overestimated. That can happen to any of us. So, I would be cautious about interpreting it as a Noble attainment too quickly. After all, if just to become a sotapanna one must usually strive with quite a bit of energy and commitment, how much more challenging would it be to attain sakadagami? Practitioners spend entire lives in monasteries, secluded, abstaining from sensual pleasures, meditating much, renouncing so much that we layfolk habitually enjoy, just to experience the Noble attainments. I agree that they are attainable in this day and age, and even for us layfolk as well (if we apply ourselves diligently enough), but I do not think they are quite that easily stumbled upon.

kind regards
manas
:anjali:
:goodpost:

I take back my sarcastic replies if they caused any harm.

But I do stand behind the Ajahn Anan quote I posted: it is so easy to mistake ourselves having attained something. And that can be very hurtful for our future practice. Tachibana how you describe your insights sounds like it moved you, but doesn't sound to me to be paths/fruits, so please reconsider. An emotional episode and a thought about nibbana doesn't make one sotapanna and a lessening of sense desire and hate doesn't make one once-returner. If that were so, almost all practicing Buddhists would be, because lessening of those things happens naturally, already before any major insight.

For your own benefit, don't fix yourself into things like these. It can only do harm.
Last edited by reflection on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Ben »

Well said, Reflection.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

You don't seem to understand why I call "taking some time" a failure :

As the Buddha said, human life is very precious, and no one knows (without the abhinna) when it'll end.
Also as long as you don't reach at least the Sotaapana stage you won't be sure that you'll one day realize the Arahant Fruit.

If you don't see "not walking the Path" as a failure, then it means that you enjoy your actual life, which is an error since the Buddha uttered that the 5 aggregates are born from dukkha (which results from craving) and that they'll lead to dukkha if you don't "walk the path".

Respecting the 5 precepts only do not make us lazy, however not seeing the danger makes us lazy.
chownah
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by chownah »

lyndon taylor wrote:
chownah wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:Khemo Sutta: Khemaka
The Ven. Khemaka is indirectly claiming to be a "non-returner" (anaagaamii). To lay claim, even truthfully, to higher attainments is an offense. To do so, knowing the claim would be false, would be a paaraajika offense involving irrevocable expulsion from the Sangha.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html
I think this is for monks....I think Tachibana is not a monk.
chownah
The quote refers to monks, but lay people are no more supposed to talk about attainments, real or imagined any more than actual monk are not allowed. If you were to talk privately to a monk or friend about your "attainment" it may not be such a sin, but announcing it to the world, may be possible but highly not recommended, acoording to the teachings.
I believe you are mistaken. Can you show a reference that supports the idea that lay people are not supposed to talk publicly about attainment......if I'm wrong I would like to know.
chownah
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:You don't seem to understand why I call "taking some time" a failure :

As the Buddha said, human life is very precious, and no one knows (without the abhinna) when it'll end.
Also as long as you don't reach at least the Sotaapana stage you won't be sure that you'll one day realize the Arahant Fruit.

If you don't see "not walking the Path" as a failure, then it means that you enjoy your actual life, which is an error since the Buddha uttered that the 5 aggregates are born from dukkha (which results from craving) and that they'll lead to dukkha if you don't "walk the path".

Respecting the 5 precepts only do not make us lazy, however not seeing the danger makes us lazy.
So, some one who is working very hard -- as hard as they can --, following the Buddha's teachings, the Buddha's Path, has not yet reached a degree of awakening, that person is a failure.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

reflection wrote:
manas wrote:Hi Tachibana

I take back my sarcastic replies if they caused any harm.

But I do stand behind the Ajahn Anan quote I posted: it is so easy to mistake ourselves having attained something. And that can be very hurtful for our future practice. Tachibana how you describe your insights sounds like it moved you, but doesn't sound to me to be paths/fruits, so please reconsider. An emotional episode and a thought about nibbana doesn't make one sotapanna and a lessening of sense desire and hate doesn't make one once-returner. If that were so, almost all practicing Buddhists would be, because lessening of those things happens naturally, already before any major insight.

For your own benefit, don't fix yourself into things like these. It can only do harm.

Well if you find another one that has become asexual after a full vipassanaa day may be I'll reconsider.

All jokes aside, I already thought earlier that I attained enlightenment, however this thought disappeared when I understood that I was only in some jhaana state.

I can stay in jhaana without wishing it for 5 hours.
But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.
Also I don't remember having truly practiced jhaana for about 1 year and half.

I don't feel equanimity since I can feel pain and pleasure.
I don't feel rapture since I didn't reach the 1rst jhaana early.
I don't feel sukha since I'm actually not producing anything special.


Well as the Buddha said, you can not understand what is being an Ariyaa if you are not an Ariyaa.
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reflection
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by reflection »

Tachibana wrote:
reflection wrote:
manas wrote:Hi Tachibana

I take back my sarcastic replies if they caused any harm.

But I do stand behind the Ajahn Anan quote I posted: it is so easy to mistake ourselves having attained something. And that can be very hurtful for our future practice. Tachibana how you describe your insights sounds like it moved you, but doesn't sound to me to be paths/fruits, so please reconsider. An emotional episode and a thought about nibbana doesn't make one sotapanna and a lessening of sense desire and hate doesn't make one once-returner. If that were so, almost all practicing Buddhists would be, because lessening of those things happens naturally, already before any major insight.

For your own benefit, don't fix yourself into things like these. It can only do harm.

Well if you find another one that has become asexual after a full vipassanaa day may be I'll reconsider.
You don't need to prove yourself to me.
All jokes aside, I already thought earlier that I attained enlightenment, however this thought disappeared when I understood that I was only in some jhaana state.

I can stay in jhaana without wishing it for 5 hours.
But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.
Also I don't remember having truly practiced jhaana for about 1 year and half.

I don't feel equanimity since I can feel pain and pleasure.
I don't feel rapture since I didn't reach the 1rst jhaana early.
I don't feel sukha since I'm actually not producing anything special.


Well as the Buddha said, you can not understand what is being an Ariyaa if you are not an Ariyaa.
With all respect,

You don't need to prove yourself to me. I just said: for your own benefit reconsider. If you don't want to, that's your problem, not mine. This sounds harsh, but the main person you hurt if you are wrong is yourself. The Buddha also said a lot about delusion and about people who think they have attained things they didn't. It's quite common, actually, maybe even more common than the real "attainments". And well, it is a good way to screw up your entire practice from there on. Which I don't want for you to happen. I just say what I say because I care about you, not because I care about your claims. I hope you understand.

WIth metta,
:anjali:
Last edited by reflection on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ben
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Ben »

Tachibana wrote: But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.
So, to be clear - you are pretending you are a sakadagami.

Is that correct?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

A person who has not yet reached the Sotaapana stage is a puthujjana, a puthujjana that wishes to reach the Ariyaa stage is dissatisfied of his current condition, so what are the benefits of having practiced the Dhamma in a wrong way ?

A birth in the Deva's realm ?
Well, that's pretty pathetic since it's not the goal of the Dhamma practice (it's even harder to realize a Fruit there).

A birth in the human realm ?
Well, except if you can keep your memories you shoudn't expect so much of such a birth... unless if you're a Sakadaagaami.

The goal of every true buddhist is the end of suffering, birth, pain, aging, sickness and death... so how do you call an unsuccessful practice ? A failure.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote:A person who has not yet reached the Sotaapana stage is a puthujjana, a puthujjana that wishes to reach the Ariyaa stage is dissatisfied of his current condition, so what are the benefits of having practiced the Dhamma in a wrong way ?

A birth in the Deva's realm ?
Well, that's pretty pathetic since it's not the goal of the Dhamma practice (it's even harder to realize a Fruit there).

A birth in the human realm ?
Well, except if you can keep your memories you shoudn't expect so much of such a birth... unless if you're a Sakadaagaami.

The goal of every true buddhist is the end of suffering, birth, pain, aging, sickness and death... so how do you call an unsuccessful practice ? A failure.
And so you are repeating yourself, telling us nothing. Maybe everyone needs to watch anime, but outside of that it may take someone a period of time to awaken?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

Ben wrote:
Tachibana wrote: But there have been several days since I pretend having reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.
So, to be clear - you are pretending you are a sakadagami.

Is that correct?

I don't know if "to pretend" has the same meaning in English and in French, so I'm going to explain what it means in French :
it means I'm uttering that I am a Sakadaagaami, it means I'm saying that I'm a sakadaagaami.

If you do not believe me, then go away, answering useless questions is a waste of time.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by tiltbillings »

Tachibana wrote: If you do not believe me, then go away, answering useless questions is a waste of time.
Why should we believe you? Just because you say you are ariya does not mean it is true. So far you have shown little actual practical understanding of Dhamma practice, but you have shown a fair amount of ego and crankiness. Again, why should we believe you?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Tachibana
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Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Post by Tachibana »

Ok I finally understood your question... sorry for keeping you wait.

I reached the Sotaapana's stage at the moment I saw my beloved protagonist disappear.

But that wasn't my goal, I just wanted to end up sadness, so after about 7 hours of vipassanaa practice I finally reached the Sakadaagaami's stage.

It took me some time and I indeed consider that I was wrong all the time until I realized the true vipassanaa, the true insight, the Path and the Fruit.
And still now I'm wrong because I'm not an Arahant.


Could we end up with this now ?
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