YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible - Page 2 - Dhamma Wheel

Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 7:56 am


Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:07 am

Do you know about the 17 thoughts moments ?

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#citta

It's not written in this AbhiDhamma version, but when you're about to reach enlightenment, the Path is the 5th Javana moment and 2 or 3 (depending on your insight) Fruits will follow as the 6th and 7th javana moment.

So theoratically, you'll get a Fruit about less than 0.1s after having "walked" the Path.

What I'm saying is that if you need time, it means you need to time to reach the Path, and so your practice is "wrong".

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:11 am


Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:23 am

Well I could give a link of the AbhiDhamma version I took this from, but I'm not sure that you understand French...

Anyway, the Fruit arises immediately after having reached the Path, that's the very basis of causality, well you already know that even Arahants are subject to cause and effect, don't you ?

If they weren't subject to causality, then no realization would be possible.
Last edited by Tachibana on Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:25 am


Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:29 am

The Fruit (the lack of craving) results from the Path (the elimination of craving), the Path results from insight (to the 4 nobles truths), insight results from vipassanaa (which is paying attention to dukkha).

Now I'm going to reiterate what I previously said : if you don't pay attention to your own emotions (suffering from lost etc), you'll never realize any Fruit.

The greater your suffering is, the greater your will to end it is, and so the greater your concentration will be.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:37 am


User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1552
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, Southern California, USA
Contact:

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:39 am

I'm going to step in here and recommend a good psychiatrist, I know just the path you're on, from personal experience, and it involves psychosis, and often ends in hospitalization. Seeing a doctor now will help you stay out of hospital and will not make you lose you're revelation, If you don't get help and end up in the hospital; by the time they're done with you you won't remember any of this, seriously get some help. IMHO
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:55 am

I have to warn you, I've found the cause of most of the fails in vipassanaa practice :

If suffering isn't great enough, the will to end it will be weak, and so there'll be no concentration.
If suffering is too great, the will to end it will be strong, and so concentration will be correct.

However, when concentration arises, the previous thoughts are stilled, and so it is impossible to remember the Dhamma while practicing true vipassanaa.

So how did I succeed ?
As I said, the anime's rules are very similar to the samsaraa's rules.
So the "deletion" of the protagonist I was attached to reminded me of nibbaana.

"her nibbaana was the cause of my suffering" : this is what I understood.
"she'll never come back, so I must end up sadness"
"I have 3 options : either I forget her, either I just keep her in my mind, either I realize nibbaana"

Whereas the 1st two options are ultimately useless, the 3rd option rouse because I precisely though of nibbaana earlier.

"nibbaana is the highest peace", "nibbaana" is the lack of craving".

And so the Fruit followed the Path, which itself followed insight.

Insight is not the Path, insight is what leads us to the Path.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:02 am


Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:32 am

Well, I don't really understand what you mean since I though that I was clear enough.

Never mind I'll explain it again :

There are 4 reasons of failure in Dhamma practice :
- pretending to practice while actually not practicing
- the murder of our own parents, it is said to impede us to find the Path
- practicing vipassanaa while trying to put aside the very emotions we are supposed to observe
- practicing vipassanaa but not taking the 3rd option (the Path, which leads to the Fruit)

The last one may be due to lack of faith or not seeing that the 1rst and 2nd options (forgetting suffering and keeping our lost object in our mind) are ultimately useless, faith is necessary to reach the Sotaapana stage.


So insight, the Path and the Fruit will arise in a single mental event if the vipassanaa practice is correct.
The only thing you've to care about are the 5 precepts, the knowledge of the core of the Dhamma (4 nobles truths, 12 nidana, 3 characteristics and nibbaana) and the attention to your own emotions.


In addition, I'd like to show you what is realization.
The 1rst three nidana are Ignorance, Fabrications and Consciousness.
Insight is the end of Ignorance, the Path is the end of Fabrications and the Fruit is the Unborn Consciousness.

User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:38 am


User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:44 am

Last edited by reflection on Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:46 am

Well said, Reflection.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 9:49 am

You don't seem to understand why I call "taking some time" a failure :

As the Buddha said, human life is very precious, and no one knows (without the abhinna) when it'll end.
Also as long as you don't reach at least the Sotaapana stage you won't be sure that you'll one day realize the Arahant Fruit.

If you don't see "not walking the Path" as a failure, then it means that you enjoy your actual life, which is an error since the Buddha uttered that the 5 aggregates are born from dukkha (which results from craving) and that they'll lead to dukkha if you don't "walk the path".

Respecting the 5 precepts only do not make us lazy, however not seeing the danger makes us lazy.

chownah
Posts: 6161
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby chownah » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:01 am


User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23012
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:01 am


Tachibana
Posts: 20
Joined: Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:01 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Tachibana » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:03 am


User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby reflection » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:15 am

Last edited by reflection on Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18442
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Producing one of the 4 noble fruits is possible

Postby Ben » Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:17 am

“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: seeker242, unspoken and 55 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine