No, not really. I'd be interested in hearing more about those times when people feel it is appropriate. What do we hope to accomplish, and are we likely to accomplish it? etc.Peter wrote:Sometimes it's appropriate, sometimes it isn't. Did you expect any other answer?
Jechbi wrote:I'd be interested in hearing more about those times when people feel it is appropriate.
Peter wrote:Keep in mind that public criticism isn't always for the benefit of the one being criticized. In a public forum such as this one often it is for the benefit of those reading and not participating. Those people see what gets criticized and what doesn't and that can be helpful to them.
Pannapetar wrote:... instilling shame and fear -even if done with good intention- is very likely to be counterproductive and damaging.
This suggests to me that to the extent we are in a position to infuence how another person might engage with the world, then if we are able to find a skillful way to help them develop these sukka lokapala, that's a good thing for them and good for all of us. Do you see it differently?Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote:Hiri is an innate sense of shame over moral transgression; ottappa is moral dread, fear of the results of wrongdoing. The Buddha calls these two states the bright guardians of the world (sukka lokapala). He gives them this designation because as long as these two states prevail in people's hearts the moral standards of the world remain intact, while when their influence wanes the human world falls into unabashed promiscuity and violence, becoming almost indistinguishable from the animal realm (Itiv. 42).
Pannapetar wrote:To be honest, I doubt this sort of thing is effective. In fact, I would go further and say that instilling shame and fear -even if done with good intention- is very likely to be counterproductive and damaging. It sounds more like brainwashing than education. As an instructional method it's a poor choice, except perhaps for reaching the lowest levels of human intuition.
Jechbi wrote:This suggests to me that to the extent we are in a position to infuence how another person might engage with the world, then if we are able to find a skillful way to help them develop these sukka lokapala, that's a good thing for them and good for all of us. Do you see it differently?
Peter wrote:You are saying he [the Buddha] engaged in brainwashing, that he gave teachings which were counterproductive and damaging, that it was a poor choice.
Ottappa: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :4434.pali
Ottappa (nt.) [fr. tappati1 + ud, would corresp. to a Sk. form *auttapya fr. ut -- tapya to be regretted, tormented by remorse. The BSk. form is a wrong adaptation of the Pāli form, taking o˚ for apa˚, viz. apatrapya M Vastu iii. 53 and apatrapā ibid. i.463. Müller, P. Gr. & Fausböll, Sutta Nipāta Index were both misled by the BSk. form, as also recently Kern, Toev. s. v.] fear of exile, shrinking back from doing wrong, remorse. See on term and its distinction from hiri (shame) Dhs trsl. 20, also DhsA 124, 126; Vism 8, 9 and the definition at SnA 181. Ottappa generally goes with hiri as one of the 7 noble treasures (see ariya -- dhanā). Hiri -- ottappa It 36; J i.129; hir -- ottappa at M i.271; S ii.220; v.1; A ii.78; iv.99, 151; v.214; It 34; J i.127, 206; VvA 23. See also hiri. -- Further passages: D iii.212; M i.356; S ii.196, 206, 208; v.89; A i.50, 83, 95; iii.4 sq., 352; iv.11; v.123 sq.; Pug 71; Dhs 147, 277; Nett 39. -- anottappa (nt.) lack of conscience, unscrupulousness, disregard of morality A i.50, 83, 95; iii.421; v.146, 214; Vbh 341, 359, 370, 391; as adj. It 34 (ahirika +).
-- gāravatā respect for conscience, A iii.331; iv.29. -- dhana the treasure of (moral) self -- control D iii.163, 251, 282; VvA 113. -- bala the power of a (good) conscience D iii.253; Ps ii.169, 176; Dhs 31, 102 (trln. power of the fear of blame).
In the present-day world, with its secularization of all values, such notions as shame and fear of wrong are bound to appear antiquated, relics from a puritanical past when superstition and dogma manacled our rights to uninhibited self-expression. Yet the Buddha's stress on the importance of hiri and ottappa was based on a deep insight into the different potentialities of human nature. He saw that the path to deliverance is a struggle against the current, and that if we are to unfold the mind's capacities for wisdom, purity and peace, then we need to keep the powderkeg of the defilements under the watchful eyes of diligent sentinels.
Preacher was a talkin' there's a sermon he gave,
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved,
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied.
It ain't easy to swallow, it sticks in the throat,
She gave her heart to the man
In the long black coat.
Pannapetar wrote:I am sorry Ben, but can we speak English rather than Pali?
Chris wrote:Hello all,
This may be of interest:
Hiri Ottappa - Ajahn Jayasaro
http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/01/hi ... asaro.html
Hiri, that sense of shame or conscience is really a shrinking away from that which is inappropriate, the corollary of which is, that we should always consider the significance and appropriateness of our actions. We might consider that on a number of different levels such as what is appropriate on a wider scale, what is appropriate for us as human beings, what's appropriate in our relationships with others? What sort of principles are proper and correct, noble principles? How should we act towards the natural world,- the environment? We might look at the appropriateness of personal relationships towards mother, father, sister, brother, spouse, workmates and so on. We really need to consider what principles should underlie our conduct towards all these people, and as Buddhists, what is appropriate behaviour, speech, and thought?
The more we reflect upon these aspects of our behaviour, discriminating between the appropriate and the inappropriate, the more we train our mind, which then becomes more refined, sensitive, confidant and protected.
Ottappa is a reflection on Karma; that willingness and preparedness to stand back and think it through. We consider the whole process from the initial action ( with the ramifications both for ourselves and others) to the final results. The clearer our understanding, the stronger our reasoned faith in Kamma. There develops a wise fear, an intelligent fear based upon the painful consequences of our unskillful activities. These guiding forces or influences are not blind emotions although there is an emotional force there grounded in Wisdom and Understanding, an understanding of what is appropriate and what will result from our actions. Of course when the mind is intoxicated, full of negativity or craving, these are the very things we don't wish to think about because it just takes away so much of the excitement and enjoyment when we stop to consider "Is this really appropriate; What will be the consequences upon ourselves and other people?"
In the Abhidhamma, it states that every unwholesome mind state is accompanied by recklessness and shamelessness- the very opposites of Hiri and Ottappa. When Hiri and Ottappa are strong and resolute we have the brake of self-discipline which allows us to refrain from any pleasure of the immediate moment through realising it will lead ultimately to an increase in attachment, to fear, paranoia, anxiety, worry, sorrow and despair. When Hiri and Ottappa are present, then we can easily keep the Precepts as the basis for the spiritual life not only through their intellectual acceptance, but by the additional emotional support, as a friend and a strong force for protection.
mikenz66 wrote:In answer to the orginal question, I suspect that trying to induce hiri-ottapa in others is futile.
Ben wrote:I found your comment above perplexing.
In the present-day world, with its secularization of all values, such notions as shame and fear of wrong are bound to appear antiquated, relics from a puritanical past when superstition and dogma manacled our rights to uninhibited self-expression.