Pali for the mundane right view

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Pali for the mundane right view

Postby starter » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:16 pm

Greetings!

Today I was pondering about the mundane right view "'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. ...", especially about "what is sacrificed". Then I searched the Chinese Agamas (MA, SA, ...) for the mundane right view recorded there. Surprisingly, all the Chinese Agamas translated by different ancient Indian monks around 300-400 AC have exactly the same translation "有施有斋。亦有咒说" [There is what is given, what is revered/worshiped and offered(斋供), and there are also spells and curses]. Since the Chinese translations differ so much from the English translation, I'd like to know the equivalent Pali phrase for "what is sacrificed", and its direct word to word English translation.

Thanks and metta!

Starter
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Pali for the mundane right view

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:23 pm

I think the whole passage is...

Katamā ca bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā: atthi dinnaṃ, atthi yiṭṭhaṃ, atthi hutaṃ, atthi sukaṭadukkaṭānaṃ kammānaṃ phalaṃ vipāko, atthi ayaṃ loko, atthi paro loko, atthi mātā, atthi pitā, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā sammaggatā sammāpaṭipannā, ye imaṃ ca lokaṃ paraṃ ca lokaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedentīti. Ayaṃ bhikkhave, sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā.


...with "there is what is sacrificed" in bold. But this should be checked by another more versed in Pali.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
daverupa
 
Posts: 4360
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Pali for the mundane right view

Postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:27 pm

This is how the Venerable Ledi Sayādaw explains mundane right view:

Right View in Ten Matters

“Atthidinnaṃ, atthiyiṭṭhaṃ, atthi hutaṃ, atthi sukata dukkaṭānaṃ kammānaṃ phalaṃ vipāko, atthi mātā, atthi pitā, atthi sattā opapātikā, atthi ayaṃ loko, atthi paroloko, atthi loke samaṇa brāhmaṇā samaggatā sammāpaṭipannā ye imañca lokaṃ parañca lokaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedenti.”
  1. Atthi dinnaṃ: There really exists almsgiving as cause (kamma) and its result (vipāka).
  2. Atthi yiṭṭhaṃ: There really exists offering on a large scale as cause and its result.
  3. Atthi hutaṃ: There really exists offering on a small scale as cause and its result.
  4. Atthi sukata dukkaṭānaṃ kammānaṃ phalaṃ vipāko: There really exist wholesome and unwholesome actions as causes and their results.
  5. Atthi mātā: There really exist the good and the evil deeds done to one’s mother as causes and their results.
  6. Atthi pitā: There really exist the good and the evil deeds done to one’s father as causes and their results.
  7. Atthi sattā opapātikā: There really exist beings who are born by apparitional rebirth such as beings in purgatory, petas, devas, Sakkas and Brahmās who cannot ordinarily be seen by men.
  8. Atthi ayaṃ loko: There really exists this world which is under our very eyes.
  9. Atthi paro loko: There really exist the other worlds or planes where one may arise after death. Or, there really exists this human world and the other worlds (four lower worlds, six deva worlds and twenty Brahmā worlds). Or, there really exists this universe consisting of the human world, four lower worlds, six deva worlds and twenty Brahmā worlds and other worlds, which are infinite in all eight directions.
  10. Atthi loke samaṇabrāhmaṇā samaggatā sammā paṭipannā ye imañca lokaṃ parañca lokaṃ sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā pavedenti: There really exist, in this human world, recluses and priests who correctly practise the Dhamma, and having realised this world and the other worlds through higher knowledge, impart that knowledge to others.
AIM WebsitePāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
 
Posts: 2079
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Pali for the mundane right view

Postby starter » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:16 am

Hello Bhante and daverupa,

Your very helpful input is very much appreciated. It seems that Venerable Ledi Sayādaw translated "hutaṃ" as small scale offerings. Then I don't understand why some others translated it as "sacrifice", which doesn't make much sense to me since I don't think that the Buddha meant things like animal sacrifice. Considering all the same translation of "spells and curses" in various Chinese Agamas, I wonder if there's a chance that "hutaṃ" had the meaning of "spells and curses", or another similar word was somehow mixed up. To be honest, I'm not very convinced about the use of two different Pali words for offerings (large scale and small scale), which doesn't seem to be very necessary.

Thanks and metta!

Starter
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Pali for the mundane right view

Postby santa100 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:35 am

It's not an easy word and there're different translations done by different teachers about Kesakambali's wrong view:
Maurice Walshe, DN 2: .. there is nothing given, bestowed, offered in sacrifice..

Ven. Thanissaro, DN 2: .. there is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed..

Ven. Bodhi, SN 24.5: .. There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing presented in charity..

And Ven. Narada Mahathera in "The Buddha and His Teachings" gave some further details:
1. There is no such virtue as ‘generosity’ (dinnam). This means
that there is no good effect in giving alms.
2. There is no such virtue as ‘liberal alms giving (ittham)’. or
3. ‘Offering gifts to guests (hutam).’ Here, too, the implied
meaning is that there is no effect in such charitable
actions.
santa100
 
Posts: 1587
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Pali for the mundane right view

Postby Sylvester » Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:49 am

starter wrote:Hello Bhante and daverupa,

Your very helpful input is very much appreciated. It seems that Venerable Ledi Sayādaw translated "hutaṃ" as small scale offerings. Then I don't understand why some others translated it as "sacrifice", which doesn't make much sense to me since I don't think that the Buddha meant things like animal sacrifice. Considering all the same translation of "spells and curses" in various Chinese Agamas, I wonder if there's a chance that "hutaṃ" had the meaning of "spells and curses", or another similar word was somehow mixed up. To be honest, I'm not very convinced about the use of two different Pali words for offerings (large scale and small scale), which doesn't seem to be very necessary.

Thanks and metta!

Starter



Hi starter

The exposition by the Ledi Sayadaw is based on the Commentarial parse of the various terms -

Yiṭṭhaṃ vuccati mahāyāgo. Hutanti paheṇakasakkāro adhippeto

- MA 439


If I read paheṇakasakkāra literally as dvanda compound, it means paheṇaka (sweetmeats) + sakkāra (honour). I think this is an idiomatic expression for "gifts and hospitality" . ( Adhippeta means desirable.

I was trying to see if the Skt cognate of huta appears in the pre-Buddhist literature, but I was not able to trace any in a quick 10 min search. I recall reading that another word was used for those ritual Vedic sacrifices, so perhaps huta has nothing to do with those sacrifices. There's a mention of a charitable fire that serves as a contrast to one of the Vedic sacrificial fires in AN 7.46 - dakkhiṇeyyaggi (the fire of gifts, ie charity as a duty), but again, I've not yet found a Vedic use of dakkhiṇā /dakṣiṇā in the actual sacrifice, except as meaning the fee paid to the priests for conducting the rite.

I think the Comy explanation is likely correct.
Sylvester
 
Posts: 1585
Joined: Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:57 am

Re: Pali for the mundane right view

Postby starter » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:14 pm

Hello Sylvester, santa100, and other friends,

Thanks for all your help. I happened to read the following sutta and agree now that the Comy explanation is likely correct. It seems that there were two types of offerings, on a big scale (puja festivals at temples?) and on a small scale (daily pūjā at home).

Metta to all!

Starter

The Story of Thera Sariputta's Friend

While residing at the Veluvana monastery, the Buddha uttered Verse (108) of this book, with reference to a friend of Thera Sariputta.

On one occasion Thera Sariputta asked his friend, a brahmin, whether he was doing any meritorious deeds and he replied that he had been making sacrificial offerings on a big scale, hoping to get to the Brahma world in his next existence. Thera Sariputta told him that his teachers had given him false hopes and that they themselves did not know the way to the Brahma world. Then he took his friend to the Buddha, who showed him the way to the Brahma world. To the friend of Thera Sariputta, the Buddha said, "Brahmin, worshipping the Noble Ones (Ariyas) only for a moment is better than making sacrificial offerings, great and small, throughout the year."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 108: In this world, one may make sacrificial offerings, great and small, all the year round, in order to gain merit; all these offerings are not worth a quarter of the merit gained by worshipping the Noble Ones (Ariyas) who walk the right path.
At the end of the discourse the brahmin attained Sotapatti Fruition.
http://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/ve ... ?verse=108
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm


Return to Pali

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests