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Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul? - Page 4 - Dhamma Wheel

Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Sam Vara
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:23 pm


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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Zom » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:33 pm


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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby socratessmith » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:34 pm


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Kusala
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Kusala » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:46 pm

Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby socratessmith » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:12 pm


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Anagarika
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Anagarika » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:38 pm


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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Samma » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:30 pm

I see the value of secular Buddhism in questioning myth, and so on. But some criticism not terribly well laid out out like accusing Thanissaro of faith in an eternal atman, self congratulation, rudeness, and the like, often seems to come from spec-non-bud. Thanks to those that have something substantial to offer on the translation and meaning front, rather than what seems to be largely grasping at straws or veering off into spec-non-land.

Certainly seems like some Buddhists assert reality of atman, such as thai dhammakaya:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_%28Buddhism%29

At nibanna, questions of self and not-self are put aside...probably the best thing I can say. If someone believed in soul they would say something like you reach your true self eh? Thanissaro said he uses word stress for dukkha, because typical translation of suffering does not make sense for more subtle forms of dukkha. Thats all, what is all this stuff about being essential part of this particular type of Buddhism, or that it assumes we are a core unified thing. The rest of the essay I'll leave alone like everyone else.

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby pulga » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:50 pm

Given that whatever merit ”French Theory” has is derived from the thought of Heidegger, perhaps Ven. Ñanavira who handled such ideas in a much more thoughtful and focused way in his efforts to become enlightened through his practice and careful study of the Dhamma has something to offer those who are reluctant to jettison the Suttas in favor of their own independent line of thinking. The Suttas offer us a hermeneutical challenge to reconcile the historical preservation of the Buddha's teaching – however imperfect that preservation might be – and our own imperfect understanding of what it means to be enlightened.

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:52 pm

As you all know there are many words to describe Nirvana. But we all know that Nirvana should be experienced not one can be understood by words.
If Ven T wants to call it unestablished consciousness or unconditioned consciousness, I have no problem with that.
We all agree that there is Nirvana.
He never said that there is a person who attained unestablished consciousness.
I also have noticed that he uses his own words to express his understanding . For example he says stress for Dukkha it make me more sense.

But I personally like to call Nirvana as Nirvana.

:meditate:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Sylvester » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:59 am


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Mr Man
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Aug 08, 2013 7:58 am

Hi Sylvester
Sorry if the question seemed (over) loaded and thanks for the reply.
:anjali:

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby mal4mac » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:30 am

- Mal

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby mal4mac » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:46 am

- Mal

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby mal4mac » Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:58 am

- Mal

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:29 am

Last edited by Mr Man on Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby mal4mac » Thu Aug 08, 2013 11:08 am

- Mal

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby pulga » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:27 pm

Last edited by pulga on Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby pulga » Thu Aug 08, 2013 1:43 pm


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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Mr Man » Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:05 pm

Last edited by Mr Man on Thu Aug 08, 2013 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Samma
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Re: Does Thanissaro Bhikkhu believe in a soul?

Postby Samma » Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:38 pm

I was looking for that passage on putting aside self and not-self:
"Where you don't draw a line to define self, there's no line to define not-self. Where there's no clinging, there's no need for the strategy of not-self. So strategies of self or not-self are put aside. At this point, the mind no longer has need for any strategies at all because it has found a happiness that's truly solid. It's not a phenomenon, its a happiness. That Buddha calls it a special form of consciousness that doesn't need to be experienced though the six senses, or what he calls "the all". Its directly experienced as total freedom. And at the moment of awakening, there's no experience of the six senses. However, after the moment of awakening, when the mind returns to the experience of the senses, this sense of freedom stays."

unconditioned consciousness = special form of consciousness that doesn't need to be experienced though the six senses. Now, I'm not going to pretend to understand this, being outside of time, but I'm also not going to jump to calling it a soul or core mind.

If that is too metaphysical perhaps:
Nibbana is asankhata, “unconditioned,” because there is no further conditioning - sankhata - by hatred, greed and ignorance.

There is the Unborn, Uncreated, Unconditioned and Unformed. If there were not, there would be no escape discerned from that which is born, created, conditioned and formed. - Ud 8.3, Iti 43

Ajahn Amaro, The Island:
It is significant that, when the Buddha makes such statements as these, he uses a different Pali verb ‘to be’ than the usual one. The vast majority of uses of
the verb employ the Pali ‘hoti’; this is the ordinary type of being, implying existence in time and space: I am happy; she is a fine horse; the house is small; the days are long. In these passages just quoted, when the Buddha makes his rare
but emphatic metaphysical statements, he uses the verb ‘atthi’ instead. It still means ‘to be’ but some Buddhist scholars (notably Peter Harvey) insist that there
is a different order of being implied: that it points to a reality which transcends the customary bounds of time, space, duality and individuality.


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