Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:24 pm

SarathW wrote:Hi Starter
What Buddha taught was:
1 Anicca; 2 Dukkha; 3 Anatta

:)


Hello SarathW,

Anicca leads to Dukkha, Dukkha leads to Anatta, Anatta leads to Non-Conceiving, Non-Conceiving leads to Nibbana.

Thanks and Metta!

Starter

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby SarathW » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:24 am

I am not sure whether Dukkha lead to Anatta.

As far as I know there is nothing called Anatta. It is just the word you to describe the impersonality of the things.
For example a scientist may say there is no absolute and permanent thing called water, it is H2O.
Buddha may say Water is Anatta because it is H2o.

The way I understand Dukkha lead to Saddha (faith)
Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:34 pm

SarathW wrote:I am not sure whether Dukkha lead to Anatta.
:)


Please see the Buddha's 2nd discourse to his first 5 disciples, and a MN discourse in which the Buddha won the debate with a very proud asetic and convinced him it's not suitable to take something dukkha as atta. Sorry I forgot the number and name of the discourses.

Metta!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:25 am

Hi I'd like to let the friends know that the first post of this thread has been updated with some new information and my updated understanding, which can be briefly summarized as:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [non-manifestive mind, mind non-indicative or non-manifestive or empty of defilements; signless -- no sign of lust/hate/delusion]
= appatiṭṭha viññāṇa [consciousness unestablished/nongenerative, not established upon name and form]
= "immeasurable mind" (immeasurable of lust/hate/delusion)
="unrestricted mind", "unbound mind", "mind without barriers": unrestricted/unbound by defilements
= living arahant’s mind
=nibbana with residue


Some more thoughts:

1) Does an arahant dwelling at the stage of cessation of perception and feeling (Nibbana) still have a “mind”?

-- I’d say yes, but with no consciousness; it’s supramundane (not the mind with assavas in mundane sense), the unconditioned nibbana.

2) What happens when an arahant dies?

-- When an arahant dies, nama-rupa and 6 types of sense consciousness cease together, and there will be no rebirth consciousness. His “mind” is completely liberated without residue.

I think it's important to understand consciousness and nibbana:

"Pañña & Viññāṇa, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, Pañña is to be developed, Viññāṇa is to be fully comprehended." (MN 43)

Thanks and metta!

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Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby starter » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:54 am

Hi I'd like to let the friends know that I've just updated the first post of this thread again with my new understanding:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [consciousness non-manifesting] = cessation of consciousness = nibbana without residue [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling, when experiencing the cessation of the five aggregates (the residue)]

appatiṭṭha viññāṇa [(mind with) consciousness unestablished/nongenerative, not established upon name and form]
= living arahant’s mind (when not dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) = nibbana with residue

Thanks and metta!
Last edited by starter on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibba

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:07 am

Hi Starter

You said:
nibbana without residue = [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling]

The way I understand that Nirodha Samapatti ( dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) is not the Nibbana.
But it is the highest state can be experience by a living Arahant.
=======================
Please also read:

The 2 aspects of Nibbāna are:

1: The full ceasing of defilements kilesa-parinibbāna also called sa-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, i.e. 'Nibbāna with the groups of existence still remaining' see: upādi. This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect Nobility see: ariya-puggala.

2: The full ceasing of the groups of existence khandha-parinibbāna also called an-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, A. IV, 118, i.e. 'Nibbāna without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - App.: Nibbāna

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_n.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibba

Postby starter » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:55 pm

Dear SarathW,

Many thanks for trying to help me. I'd like to ask you and other friends to continue to tell me if you notice (or think) any wrong views/mistakes or inappropriate speech/actions from me, big or small. Please don’t be afraid of offending me. I've been practicing alone (physically) and need the camaraderies' support. Your kind intention and effort would always be appreciated.

I agree with the definitions of the two types of nibbana that you cited, though I tend to consider the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (and vinnana) as a taste of nibbana without residue, because the five aggregates have temporarily "disappeared" or disassociated with citta.

Much metta!

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibba

Postby SarathW » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:10 am

Hi Starter
The way I understand your statement:
nibbana without residue = [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling]
is not correct .
====================
But you are correct in regards to the following:

This transcendental state is Nirodha Samāpattithat is, experiencing Nibbāna in this life itself.
Page 399:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf

:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby SarathW » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:03 pm

I just wonder whether Vinnanam Anidassana refer to invisible material qualities!
:shrug:

See Page 41
The five aggregate.
You can download free copy by Google.

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=mU ... ra&f=false


This threefold division occurs
only once in the nikliya literature, and no explanation is given for it.
The commentary on this particular sutta does not shed much light on
the topic either.45 The Dhammasa1iga~i, however, clarifies the meaning
of the terms. According to this abhidhammic text, the term visible
(sanidassanarh) is restricted to what is visible (rapayatana)-the only
material element which can actually be perceived by the eye.46 All the
other elements of matter (primary or secondary) are considered
anidassanarh, for they are invisible.47 This statement may seem to
conflict with the sutta definition of the primary elements (see p. 34)
according to which the earth element finds expression in, for instance,
hair, nails, etc., and the water element in blood, tears, and so on-all
of which are visible. The AbhidharmakoSa resolves this apparent
contradiction by claiming that although all four primary elements are
invisible, we can actually see them in partial manifestations, for their
visibility is understood from the perspective of common usage. In
reality, the elements themselves are invisible:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:37 am

It's about time to put this wretched verse out of its misery and its strained applications.

1 Kattha āpo ca pathavī,
tejo vāyo na gādhati;

2 Kattha dīghañca rassañca,
aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;

3 Kattha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhatī’ti.

1‘Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī,
tejo vāyo na gādhati.

2 Ettha dīghañca rassañca,
aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;

3 Ettha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati;

Viññāṇassa nirodhena,
etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’”ti.


First, count the syllables in every line of the verse - it's a standard 8 syllable pattern, which is the classical vatta metre (Warder, p.358). Now, if this verse had been left in the hands of a totally unpoetic monk who recognised the clause structure in the first 4 lines of the answer, yattha would also have been added to the first line as such -

Yattha viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ . (where consciousness is anidassana etc)

But in so doing, the vatta metre would have been disturbed completely (it becomes 10 syllables, instead of 8). So in service of metri causa (ie preserving the metre), the yattha/where would need to be dropped.

What we would have in -

Yattha viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ,
anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;

Ettha āpo ca pathavī,
tejo vāyo na gādhati.



is a typical Pali clause structure, where the red is the subordinate clause, and the blue the main clause. The subordinate clause employs the relative adverb "where" (yattha) and furnishes the opening that leads to the main clause about the 4 elements.

"Yattha viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ" would thus be nothing more than a relative clause made up of a plain vanilla appositional proposition, ie Where consciousness is anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ".

Technically, the main clause should have been constructed as "tattha āpo ca pathavī tejo vāyo na gādhati" (there, water, earth, fire, & wind do not stand), but I think the use of ettha/here was just poetic licence to unify all 3 verses.

The subordinate clause and the main clause are talking about the same thing, namely consciousness of the Formless Attainments. Nothing more.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby pulga » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:50 pm

Hi Sylvester,

Sylvester wrote:
The subordinate clause and the main clause are talking about the same thing, namely consciousness of the Formless Attainments. Nothing more.

What do you make of these suttas where the ceasing of name-and-form are associated with cutting the ties of being (existence)?

“Na aññatra bhagavatā,
nāññatra tava sāsanā;
Yassa te dhammamaññāya,
acchiduṃ bhavabandhanaṃ.

Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Taṃ te dhammaṃ idhaññāya,
acchiduṃ bhavabandhanan”ti.


Not apart from the Blessed One.
Not apart from the Teaching.
Through knowledge of your Dhamma,
They severed the ties of being.

Where name and form
Cease without remainder;
Through knowledge of that Dhamma here,
They severed the ties of being. SN 2.24


Yesaṃ rāgo ca doso ca,
avijjā ca virājitā;
Khīṇāsavā arahanto,
tesaṃ vijaṭitā jaṭā.

Yattha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Paṭighaṃ rūpasaññā ca,
etthesā chijjate jaṭā”ti.


“Those for whom lust and hatred
Along with ignorance have been expunged,
The arahants with taints destroyed:
For them the tangle is disentangled.

“Where name-and-form ceases,
Stops without remainder,
And also impingement and perception of form:
It is here this tangle is cut.” SN 1.23


2 Ettha dīghañca rassañca,
aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;

3 Ettha nāmañca rūpañca,
asesaṃ uparujjhati;


I have a tentative interpretation that this has to do with the seemingly ever present pre-reflective consciousness of the background of our experience: the All that the Buddha speaks of, that -- in its generality -- encompasses 'the long and the short, the small and the big, the fair and the foul'. It never shows itself (anidassana) because it's always in the background. Through the knowledge of its contingency one's very being is undermined. (It's contingency lies in the holistic principle that whereas the whole defines its parts, a particular part -- i.e. the one that is present, though manifestly impermanent through our experience of change -- is the ontological* foundation for the whole.)

*'To be' and 'to be present' are the same thing. -- Ven. Ñanavira

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:06 pm

Hi pulga

Pls excuse the brevity of my reply, as i am on my phone.

Truth be told, i was focusing only on #1 of the 3 QnA. Based on the structure of the 3 in both DN 11 and its Agama parallel, it appears that each QnA was intended to deal with 3 distinct subjects, ie form, name and name-&-form. In fact, in DA 24, the Chinese merely has the prosaic 無形 (without shape/appearance) where DN 11 has anidassana.

I'm generally nervous about relying on verse in doctrinal matters. I've not checked the Agama versions of the 2 verses you cite from the SN but if my bad experience* with SN 1.27 is anything to go by, i suspect there may be more to it than meets the eye.

* SN 1.27 looks like a badly stitched verse that lifted the 4 dhatus bit from DN 11, but the Agama version is more coherent without them.

:anjali:

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:45 am

Something from a Sanskrit fragment in a parallel to MN 148 -

\\\+++pratyayam āddhyātmam utpadyate vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ +++\\\

\\\anyatamo bhikṣus trīṇi sūtrāṇi || ? || āyusmān ānandastrīṇi +\\\

\\\++ādhyātmikam āyatanaṃ tac ca bhagavatā uddiṣṭam avibhaktaṃ \\\

\\\ ++++mana ādhyātmikam āyatanaṃ tac ca bhagavatā +\\\

\\\ +++ arūpam anidarśanam apratighaṃ ++++\\\

https://suttacentral.net/skt/sf18


Notice the list of synonyms at the end of the passage?

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:24 am

Sylvester wrote:Something from a Sanskrit fragment in a parallel to MN 148 -

\\\+++pratyayam āddhyātmam utpadyate vedayitaṃ sukhaṃ +++\\\

\\\anyatamo bhikṣus trīṇi sūtrāṇi || ? || āyusmān ānandastrīṇi +\\\

\\\++ādhyātmikam āyatanaṃ tac ca bhagavatā uddiṣṭam avibhaktaṃ \\\

\\\ ++++mana ādhyātmikam āyatanaṃ tac ca bhagavatā +\\\

\\\ +++ arūpam anidarśanam apratighaṃ ++++\\\

https://suttacentral.net/skt/sf18


Notice the list of synonyms at the end of the passage?
A translation possible?
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby pulga » Mon Jun 06, 2016 4:34 am

Interesting find, Sylvester. I've got just a couple questions.

Sylvester wrote:
\\\ +++ arūpam anidarśanam apratighaṃ ++++\\\


Notice the list of synonyms at the end of the passage?


Don’t the arūpa jhānas fall within the realm of nāmarūpa, cf. for example SN 14.11 where the the elements of the base of infinite space and so on are ultimately discernible dependent upon the element of form? Would it be correct to think of them as apaṭigha, i.e. without impingement? Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby Dhammanando » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:40 am

pulga wrote:Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.



You have to double the p (appaṭigha), then you'll find it in the DN's Saṅgītisutta and the SN's Sallasutta.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:31 am

tiltbillings wrote:A translation possible?


A thousand apologies! I don't have my copy of Edgerton with me, so I'll offer the definitions of the Pali equivalents, on the assumption that the various schools shared a common lexicon for these terms.

arūpa = formless

anidarśana = anidassana = not visible, without shape/appearance

apratigha = appa­ṭi­gha = not from sensory impingement

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby Sylvester » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:53 am

pulga wrote:Interesting find, Sylvester. I've got just a couple questions.

Sylvester wrote:
\\\ +++ arūpam anidarśanam apratighaṃ ++++\\\


Notice the list of synonyms at the end of the passage?


Don’t the arūpa jhānas fall within the realm of nāmarūpa, cf. for example SN 14.11 where the the elements of the base of infinite space and so on are ultimately discernible dependent upon the element of form? Would it be correct to think of them as apaṭigha, i.e. without impingement? Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.



Hi pulga

As you are doubtless aware, SN 14.11 posits the relationship of the base of infinite space with form as follows -

Yāyaṃ, bhikkhu, ākāsānañ­cāyata­na­dhātu—ayaṃ dhātu rūpaṃ paṭicca paññāyati.

The base of the infinity of space is discerned in dependence on form.
per BB


This paṭicca idiom is of course well known in the formulae for Dependant Arising. I propose referring to DN 15 for a clue -

Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhi­vacana­samphasso paññāyethā”ti?

If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”
per BB


I propose that the locative rūpakāye is a locative of reference (ie would designation contact be discerned with reference to the form-group?).
I'm sure you recognise the existential locative absolute in red and what I believe it says in relation to dependency, namely the verbs in the subordinate clause and the main clause need not be contemporaneous.

So, even if the base of infinite space is absolutely dependant on Form, the 2 need not co-exist in that same time. It also seems that DN 9 would not allow the singularity of the perception of Infinite Space to trot along with another perception.
Last edited by Sylvester on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby pulga » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:34 pm

Dhammanando wrote:You have to double the p (appaṭigha), then you'll find it in the DN's Saṅgītisutta and the SN's Sallasutta.


Thank you, Bhante. Given the scarcity of the expression "viññāṇa anidassana", I don't think it is feasible to draw a definitive conclusion as to its meaning. But I question whether it is refers merely to the Formless Attainments. Given that it is where 'the long and the short, the small and the big, the fair and the foul' cease without remainder, it may have something to do with the "transcendence of discrimination" (vidhā samatikkanta) the Suttas refer to, e.g. --

Evaṃ kho, surādha, jānato evaṃ passato imasmiñca saviññāṇake kāye, bahiddhā ca sabbanimittesu ahaṅkā­ra­ma­maṅkā­ra­mā­nāpaga­taṃ mānasaṃ hoti vidhā samatikkantaṃ santaṃ suvimuttan”ti

“When one knows and sees thus, Suradha, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, the mind is rid of I-making, mine-making, and conceit, has transcended discrimination, and is peaceful and well liberated.” SN 22.72


Though perhaps vidhā samatikkanta ought to be identified as “the three discriminations” (tayo vidhā) of the Samiddhi Sutta.

“Samo visesī uda vānihīno,
Yo maññatī so vivadethatena;
Tīsu vidhāsu avikampamāno,
Samo visesīti na tassa hoti;
Sace vijānāsi vadehi yakkhā”ti.


“One who conceives ‘I am equal, better, or worse,’
Might on that account engage in disputes.
But one not shaken in the three discriminations
Does not think, ‘I am equal or better.’ SN 1.20
Last edited by pulga on Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Jun 06, 2016 1:42 pm

Sylvester wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A translation possible?


A thousand apologies! I don't have my copy of Edgerton with me, so I'll offer the definitions of the Pali equivalents, on the assumption that the various schools shared a common lexicon for these terms.

arūpa = formless

anidarśana = anidassana = not visible, without shape/appearance

apratigha = appa­ṭi­gha = not from sensory impingement
Thanks. I role my eyes, and slowly shake my head. I could have just as easily used my copy of Edgerton, which is three steps from where I am sitting, to provide a translation, though I don't understand why you don't carry yours with you.
    >> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<<
    -- Proverbs 26:12


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