Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:01 am

Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:Goenka is a Hindu.

Ah, no - he is not a Hindu.
.


Ben, your reply shows a complete confidence.
While facts are not supporting you.

Goenkas are popular business marwari Hindus . Their ancestors come from Rajsthan state
of India.
In pre British Raj, India and Burma were with britishers.
At that time S.N.Coenka.s parents had settled in Burma for their business.
Goenka has a large family and most of them are settled in Bombay India. And
I have come across many of their ceremonies in last 21 years, which indicate that
they are still Hindus.

Could you eloberate on your statement that he is not a Hindu?
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby pilgrim » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:09 am

He takes the 3 refuges and does not consider any other person or god to have equivalent authority on the path to liberation.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:16 am

I have come across many teachers of Vipassana.
Almost all of them are conditioned.
They have to guide the students with CONFIDENCE.
And this confidence becomes a part of their life and makes them conditioned.
This is their occupation hazzard.

I tell all these teachers that they should analyse themselves also.
In spite of such a wonderful science of Vipassana and their involvement
in the centre of this science, I find no changes in them after 21 years.

The outer life of the teachers should have changed drastically. They should
have been happier, peacful, prosporous, and with strong family and friedly ties.
Outer life should be the mirror of their progress.

Theravadians teachings are having a lot of limitations if they strictly separate themselves
from other buddhist teaching of Guatam Buddha , particularly mahayana and lotus sutra.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:17 am

Balive


you are the fourth case who feels that his condition is hardened.

Earlier I met one very senior teacher of vipassana who was full of frustations
even after 30 years of association. I met him at chamba in himalyas recuperating
in my ashram.

There was also a doctor from Pune, highly active, respected, marked for no 2 after Goenka,
who left. I have not met him since.

A family friend of mine, associated with vipassana for more than 20 years, teacher as well as
organiser, honest, hard working, dedicated, still active with vipassana centres..... often comes to me with his frustations in his family life Repeating
his teachings like a parrot.

Some times after observing them from near I feel that their conditioning is so hard, that Guatam Buddha will
leave them as last persons to be saved.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:34 am

vipassana scratches off top layer of karmas and METTA is like applying medicine to the
scratched surface.
Goenka and teachers say that Vipassana with out METTA is dangerous.
I say that Vipassana without METTA IS VERY VERY dangerous.

But achieving the heights of Buddha hood via Bhoddhisattvas is the reward of
the courageous persons.

A person with a strong conviction of DO OR DIE can do vipassana without METTA.
In the process he may actually die, but even this physical death will have untold rewards.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby pilgrim » Mon Aug 12, 2013 6:56 am

It is probably inappropriate to project your expectations on others ; on what or how a meditator should be. You see a person with problems. Really, do you expect otherwise? Just because a person meditates, does not mean he no longer experiences dukkha. This is true until he attains arahantship. This is the 1st Noble Truth.

The question should be has his meditation practice helped him? How much worse would he be if he does not practise. This is something only the meditator would know. In the meantime, what each of us should do is to turn our attention inward to watch ourselves.

Let not one seek others’ faults, things left done and undone by others, but one's own deeds done and undone. ~ Dhammapada Verse 50.
Easily seen are others' faults, hard indeed to see are one's own. ~ Dhammapada Verse 252.
He who sees others' faults, and is ever irritable, the corruptions of such a one grow. He is far from the destruction of corruptions. ~ Dhammapada Verse 253.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:01 am

Aloof wrote:
Ben wrote:
Aloof wrote:Goenka is a Hindu.

Ah, no - he is not a Hindu.
.


Ben, your reply shows a complete confidence.
While facts are not supporting you.

Goenkas are popular business marwari Hindus . Their ancestors come from Rajsthan state
of India.
In pre British Raj, India and Burma were with britishers.
At that time S.N.Coenka.s parents had settled in Burma for their business.
Goenka has a large family and most of them are settled in Bombay India. And
I have come across many of their ceremonies in last 21 years, which indicate that
they are still Hindus.

Could you eloberate on your statement that he is not a Hindu?


The time I have spent with him in India and Australia and with his son BL Goenka, in Myanmar.
The last time he was a practicing Hindu was in the mid 1950s before he met U Ba Khin.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Aloof » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:44 am

Ben wrote:The time I have spent with him in India and Australia and with his son BL Goenka, in Myanmar.
The last time he was a practicing Hindu was in the mid 1950s before he met U Ba Khin.
kind regards,

Ben



I am a Hindu by birth. For last 21 year every atom of my body loves Guatam buddha
and science of Buddhism along with his suttas.

Does it make me a Buddhist either by conversions or by belief?
Does Goenka or his present family says that they have converted into Buddhism?
Does even Goenka himself personally say that he got converted?
does his knowledge of Buddhism say that he should get converted?
Has their been an incident or occasion by which he got converted?
Does he as a citizen of India fill his forms informing that he is not a Hindu?
Has he said Personally to you or any other person that he is no more a Hindu any more?

I do want a confirmed answer to this from any one else for a certain personal reasons of mine.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby balive » Mon Aug 12, 2013 7:54 am

Thanks for the Wat Rampoeng tip, I'm going to go and check them out, it's not far from where I am.

With regards to the 10 eons, the point of that particular teaching is that even if you become enlightened in an instant, it had meant that you were practising for the previous 10 eons, and that moment was the final icing on cake which pushed you over into nibbana. Goenka teachers this point in the 45 day courses, and also Ledi Sayadaw (died 1923) and other monks I believe also teach this.

If this is true, presumably it is impossible to know where you are at in the 10 eons, the beginning, middle or end of the process.

It could also be a method to get people to focus more on sitting, because it came with instructions that in all those eons a buddha is very rare, and that you had to perfect and accumulate vast quantities of the 10 paramis to make to the final goal. And that there are 2 paramis that are only available in a Buddha sasana (which we're in) - being upekkha (equanimity) and panna (wisdom). So the ideas is that you focus a lot of energy right now to develop those 2, because you're not going to get another chance across all the eons without a Buddha.

I doubt any of this is the Buddha's original teachings.
Perhaps it's true. Or perhaps it fairy tales.

The question is, does it work to help you with your practise, or hinder you?
I haven't found it very helpful.
Blog: http://www.zenwakeup.com
Nothing to do with Zen. I don't know anything about Zen.
So, why Zen? 'cause Zen gets 11 million searches a month, while Buddha only gets 4 million.
Go figure... or rather... Go on 'zen wake up!
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Virgo » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:34 am

balive wrote:With regards to the 10 eons, the point of that particular teaching is that even if you become enlightened in an instant, it had meant that you were practising for the previous 10 eons, and that moment was the final icing on cake which pushed you over into nibbana.

Hi Balive,

What person, and is nibbana a place where "one" goes?

Thanks,

Kevin
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby balive » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:45 am

Great point Kevin!
What person indeed...???
And what is nibbana, the unconditioned state...??

I cannot answer your questions :)
Blog: http://www.zenwakeup.com
Nothing to do with Zen. I don't know anything about Zen.
So, why Zen? 'cause Zen gets 11 million searches a month, while Buddha only gets 4 million.
Go figure... or rather... Go on 'zen wake up!
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:58 am

balive wrote:I doubt any of this is the Buddha's original teachings.
Perhaps it's true. Or perhaps it fairy tales.

The question is, does it work to help you with your practise, or hinder you?
I haven't found it very helpful.


May I ask a question?
Why does it matter?

I can't remember the last time I thought about how long it could possibly take me to become an arahant.
However long it takes is however long it takes. In the meantime the improvements to my day-to-day life of maintaining practice is more than enough incentive to keep going with or without enlightenment.
May I suggest you keep it simple, balive, maintain your practice one-day-at-a-time.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Being Somebody

Postby Kumara » Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:42 am

Though having spent a much shorter period in another tradition, I can relate well with what Balive wrote.

It's about being somebody, isn't it? All that aiming, all that striving, to be somebody.

It took quite a while for me to realise this, and quite some right effort to give it up. Like you said, having built up a sense of who you are with meditation, it's scary to let go of that "me the meditator on the way to Nibbana".

It's bhavatanha, and all the teachers and fellow meditators of my past affiliation said nothing about it to me (as far as I can recall). Another who left also spoke about the sense of being elites among Buddhists, in fact among humankind. We got caught up in it—big time.

Looking back, I find it quite funny. A chapter in this spiritual journey. A great lesson.
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Re: Being Somebody

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:14 am

Kumara wrote: Another who left also spoke about the sense of being elites among Buddhists, in fact among humankind. We can caught up in it—big time.


I think we all do, Venerable.
And then our preconceptions and self-identity shatters as a result of continued Dhamma practice.
It leads to difficult and deeply uncomfortable introspective experience which is probably an indicator or real progress.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Being Somebody

Postby Kumara » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:50 am

Ben wrote:
Kumara wrote: Another who left also spoke about the sense of being elites among Buddhists, in fact among humankind. We can caught up in it—big time.


I think we all do, Venerable.
And then our preconceptions and self-identity shatters as a result of continued Dhamma practice.
It leads to difficult and deeply uncomfortable introspective experience which is probably an indicator or real progress.

It's after all about letting go, isn't it?

I think it happens often when we fail to notice how we're practicing. With what attitude, what motivations we are practising? The lesson has taught me the value of paying attention to the 2nd path factor: sammasankappa, which I'm now considering Ajahn Khemasiri's translation: right orientation. (It's in his transcribed talk, included here: tisarana.ca/download/books/pdf/Seeing_the_Way_Vol2.pdf.
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Re: Insights from my 21 years of practising Goenka style

Postby Ben » Mon Aug 12, 2013 11:12 am

I agree, Venerable.
Thank you for the link which I will check out later.
kind regards,

Ben
"One cannot step twice into the same river, nor can one grasp any mortal substance in a stable condition, but it scatters and again gathers; it forms and dissolves, and approaches and departs."

- Hereclitus


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Re: Being Somebody

Postby dhammapal » Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:19 am

Hi Bhante,
Kumara wrote:Though having spent a much shorter period in another tradition, I can relate well with what Balive wrote.

It's about being somebody, isn't it? All that aiming, all that striving, to be somebody.

It took quite a while for me to realise this, and quite some right effort to give it up. Like you said, having built up a sense of who you are with meditation, it's scary to let go of that "me the meditator on the way to Nibbana".

It's bhavatanha, and all the teachers and fellow meditators of my past affiliation said nothing about it to me (as far as I can recall). Another who left also spoke about the sense of being elites among Buddhists, in fact among humankind. We got caught up in it—big time.

Looking back, I find it quite funny. A chapter in this spiritual journey. A great lesson.

As a layperson I find profound Anguttara Nikaya 5:128 An Ascetic's Happiness, being content with any kind of almsfood, any kind of robes, any kind of lodging, any kind of medicine. It seems that spiritual and material goals are inversely proportional, although of course obtaining necessary requisites is good as long as it isn't the goal of practice.

With metta / dhammapal.
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Re: Being Somebody

Postby Anagarika » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:12 pm

Kumara wrote:
Ben wrote:
Kumara wrote: Another who left also spoke about the sense of being elites among Buddhists, in fact among humankind. We can caught up in it—big time.


I'm now considering Ajahn Khemasiri's translation: right orientation. (It's in his transcribed talk, included here: tisarana.ca/download/books/pdf/Seeing_the_Way_Vol2.pdf.


Just downloaded and saved as a pdf file for reading this week. Thank you very much, Ven. Kumara!
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