"Dogs do it better"

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
binocular
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by binocular »

jayarava wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:If this conceit is grounded in the notion of the intrinsic spiritual superiority of one’s social class, then the way to remove it is by drawing attention to the inconsistency between the sacred lore (with its ascetic values, etc.) to which the audience declares allegiance and the audience’s carnal and cyrenaic manner of living.
This explanation might fit better if the portrayal of Brahmanism was how Brahmins really did behave in the past. Here it is not. The ideal here, which dogs conform to and Brahmins do not, is portrayed as the ancient Brahmanical custom but there is no supporting evidence from outside of Buddhist texts that this was ever the case. The idea is one that only exists in Buddhist texts. Thus reading it historically as you do is not justified.
One could point out the controversies with the Hare Krishnas. But here are some passages from their scriptures:
Although the Lord appears on schedule, namely at the end of the Dvāpara-yuga of the twenty-eighth millennium of the seventh Manu in one day of Brahmā, He has no obligation to adhere to such rules and regulations, because He is completely free to act in many ways at His will. He therefore appears by His own will whenever there is a predominance of irreligiosity and a disappearance of true religion. Principles of religion are laid down in the Vedas, and any discrepancy in the matter of properly executing the rules of the Vedas makes one irreligious. In the Bhāgavatam it is stated that such principles are the laws of the Lord. Only the Lord can manufacture a system of religion. The Vedas are also accepted as originally spoken by the Lord Himself to Brahmā, from within his heart. Therefore, the principles of dharma, or religion, are the direct orders of the Supreme Personality of Godhead (dharmaḿ tu sākṣād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]). These principles are clearly indicated throughout the Bhagavad-gītā. The purpose of the Vedas is to establish such principles under the order of the Supreme Lord, and the Lord directly orders, at the end of the Gītā, that the highest principle of religion is to surrender unto Him only, and nothing more. The Vedic principles push one towards complete surrender unto Him; and whenever such principles are disturbed by the demoniac, the Lord appears. From the Bhāgavatam we understand that Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas. Although there are certain restrictive rules and regulations regarding animal sacrifice for particular purposes in the Vedas, people of demonic tendency still took to animal sacrifice without reference to the Vedic principles. Lord Buddha appeared to stop this nonsense and to establish the Vedic principles of nonviolence.
http://vedabase.net/bg/4/7/
Lord Buddha, a powerful incarnation of the Personality of Godhead, appeared in the province of Gayā (Bihar) as the son of Añjanā, and he preached his own conception of nonviolence and deprecated even the animal sacrifices sanctioned in the Vedas. At the time when Lord Buddha appeared, the people in general were atheistic and preferred animal flesh to anything else. On the plea of Vedic sacrifice, every place was practically turned into a slaughterhouse, and animal-killing was indulged in unrestrictedly. Lord Buddha preached nonviolence, taking pity on the poor animals. He preached that he did not believe in the tenets of the Vedas and stressed the adverse psychological effects incurred by animal-killing. Less intelligent men of the age of Kali, who had no faith in God, followed his principle, and for the time being they were trained in moral discipline and nonviolence, the preliminary steps for proceeding further on the path of God realization.
http://vedabase.net/sb/1/3/24/
2. Buddha descended to lead people away from Vedic scholarship and ritualism, which atheistic-minded brahmanas had turned into dry mental speculation and animal slaughter. In reaction against these brahmanas, the Buddhist philosophical conclusion is Sunyavada (voidism), and the ritualistic conclusion is Ahimsa (nonviolence).
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/mayavada.htm
They explain that God incarnated Himself as Lord Buddha at a time when the people, including the brahmanas, became unruly.

This is in line with the general Hindu conviction that the Buddha is the 9th incarnation of Vishnu.

My suspicion is that the audience were actually Brahmin converts already. The attempt is to inculcate a new conception of "brāhmaṇa" which is specific to Buddhism and one which never caught on - either in Buddhist or non-Buddhist India. The Buddha is trying to convince someone to live an ascetic life.
Here are some external resources that are in line with the idea that brahmanas are ideally ascetic:
Brahmana

Also spelled brahmin or brahman ("possessor of Brahma"), highest ranking of the four varnas. The study and recitation of the sacred scriptures and scholarship is traditionally reserved for them.

Brahmanas act as advisors and ministers of ruling chiefs. Their traditional position is as priests, ministering both in temples and at domestic rites. The brahmana family priest (purohita) officiates at weddings, funerals, and other ceremonial occasions.

The purity of the brahmanas is maintained through the observance of numerous restrictions, many of which relate to diet and contact with lower castes. Most brahmanas are strictly vegetarian and must abstain from certain occupations. They may not plow or handle any impure material, such as leather or hides, but they may farm and do such agricultural work as does not violate these specific restrictions. They may also accept employment as domestic servants; many well-to-do Hindus have brahmana cooks, who are valued because members of all castes may eat the food that they prepare.
(Brittanica CD. Version 97. Encyclopaedia Brittanica Inc., 1997)
Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness--these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work."
(BG 18.42)
http://www.veda.harekrsna.cz/encyclopedia/brahmana.htm
In the Mahabharata 1it is stated:
/.../
"A brahmana must be perfectly religious. He must be truthful, and he must be able to control his senses. He must execute severe austerities, and he must be detached, humble and tolerant. He must not envy anyone, and he must be expert in performing sacrifices and giving whatever he has in charity. He must be fixed in devotional service and expert in the knowledge of the Vedas. These are the twelve qualifications for a brahmana."

Elsewhere in the Mahabharata (Vana Parva Chapter 180) Yudhisthira explains —
/.../
"A person who possesses truthfulness, charity, forgiveness, sobriety, gentleness, austerity and lack of hatred is called a brahmana."

In the Srimad Bhagavatam (7.11.21) Sri Narada Muni states -
/.../
"The symptoms of a brahmana are control of the mind, control of the senses, austerity and penance, cleanliness, satisfaction, forgiveness, simplicity, knowledge, mercy, truthfulness, and complete surrender to the Supreme Personality of Godhead."

http://gosai.com/writings/the-ontologic ... e-brahmana
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Tom
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by Tom »

Dhammanando wrote:The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs.
Where in this sutta (or elsewhere) is it stated that this is how dogs are better than brahmins?
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manas
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by manas »

Dhammanando wrote:Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Greetings Bhante, and members,

While I appreciate the iconoclastic wit in the above also, it doesn't seem in keeping with the Buddha's usual civility. I have some doubt about the authenticity of the Buddha really having said all of that. Even when he makes fun of things, there is a kind of basic decorum about the Blessed One's speech, and this particular sutta does not jibe with that, for me. One thing that also stands out as odd, is the notion that maintaining caste purity (brahmins only getting it on with other brahmins) would be an issue, when (I would have thought) that what really matters in the choice of a mate is their character and integrity, not their caste. The Buddha doesn't strike me as being concerned with either caste or racial purity.

metta
:anjali:
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manas
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by manas »

binocular wrote: From the Bhāgavatam we understand that Lord Buddha is the incarnation of Kṛṣṇa who appeared when materialism was rampant and materialists were using the pretext of the authority of the Vedas. Although there are certain restrictive rules and regulations regarding animal sacrifice for particular purposes in the Vedas, people of demonic tendency still took to animal sacrifice without reference to the Vedic principles. Lord Buddha appeared to stop this nonsense and to establish the Vedic principles of nonviolence.
http://vedabase.net/bg/4/7/
Hi binocular
I think you would be aware that the Hare Krishnas are woefully ignorant when it comes to either the Buddha's true message, or his person.

kind regards
manas :anjali:
Last edited by manas on Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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dagon
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by dagon »

manas wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Greetings Bhante, and members,

While I appreciate the iconoclastic wit in the above also, it doesn't seem in keeping with the Buddha's usual civility. I have some doubt about the authenticity of the Buddha really having said all of that. Even when he makes fun of things, there is a kind of basic decorum about the Blessed One's speech, and this particular sutta does not jibe with that, for me. One thing that also stands out as odd, is the notion that maintaining caste purity (brahmins only getting it on with other brahmins) would be an issue, when (I would have thought) that what really matters in the choice of a mate is their character and integrity, not their caste. The Buddha doesn't strike me as being concerned with either caste or racial purity.

metta
:anjali:
The Buddha comments were addressed to the keeping of the Brahmins dhamma by Brahminns not in reference to what he was teaching the dhamma should be.

There was and still is some argument in India if Brahmin is a question of hereditary or quality. The references would suggest that Buddha clearly believed that they were very caught up with the identification of Brahmin as self – as in “I am a Brahmin”. Some would have tried to argue that Buddha was not qualified to teach the truth he taught because he was not a Brahmin by birth.

What my understanding is that he taught is that following the Buddhas dhamma put one beyond the cast system.

i am willing to be corrected

metta

paul
Last edited by dagon on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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manas
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by manas »

dagon wrote: The Buddha comments were addressed to the keeping of the Brahmins dhamma by Brahminns not in reference to what he was teaching the dhamma should be.
paul
Yes, I can see what you mean. Thanks for pointing that out.

kind regards
manas :anjali:
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Tom
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by Tom »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:57 am Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Referring to the point about Brahmins having sex only with non-brahmins, does this mean that it is better to have sex only with those in one’s caste? If so, does this have any implications for people who belong to an ethnic group that doesn’t have a caste system?
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by Sam Vara »

Tom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 pm
Referring to the point about Brahmins having sex only with non-brahmins, does this mean that it is better to have sex only with those in one’s caste? If so, does this have any implications for people who belong to an ethnic group that doesn’t have a caste system?
The point is not about Brahmins having sex only with non-Brahmins; but about their lapsing from a previous standard when they used only to have sex with others from the same caste. As in "They will now have sex with non-Brahmins, whereas before they would not".

I don't think there is any implicit claim in there about who it is better to have sex with. It seems to be more about the hypocrisy involved in claiming to be superior based on standards which now no longer apply.
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by davidbrainerd »

Sekha wrote: Fri May 31, 2013 6:46 am One may well suggest the same thing about them. Actually, some suttas indicate that some mentions to brahmins have been later additions to the text. See for example MN 53.
How do you think that verse means mentions of brahmins are additions?
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by DooDoot »

Tom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 pmReferring to the point about Brahmins having sex only with non-brahmins, does this mean that it is better to have sex only with those in one’s caste? If so, does this have any implications for people who belong to an ethnic group that doesn’t have a caste system?
Caste is not necessarily the same a race or ethic group. Caste refers to social status or social values. Therefore, as taught in AN 4.55, it is ideal a person marry another person with the same religious, moral & social values. Also, since I assume Brahmins were the priestly caste, I assume or guess the Buddha expected Brahmins to marry women with high moral values.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:57 am Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
can someone source this sutta for me. i thought sona sutta was where the deva asked buddha if he was a human
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by perkele »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:35 am
Tom wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:30 pmReferring to the point about Brahmins having sex only with non-brahmins, does this mean that it is better to have sex only with those in one’s caste? If so, does this have any implications for people who belong to an ethnic group that doesn’t have a caste system?
Caste is not necessarily the same a race or ethic group. Caste refers to social status or social values. Therefore, as taught in AN 4.55, it is ideal a person marry another person with the same religious, moral & social values. Also, since I assume Brahmins were the priestly caste, I assume or guess the Buddha expected Brahmins to marry women with high moral values.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
I think you overinterpret the Buddha's statements about Brahmins here, and that the Buddha did not expect anything of Brahmins. He was simply mocking them here for their pride (which he did repeatedly on several occasions).

AN 4.55 speaks about being "in tune in conviction, in tune in virtue, in tune in generosity, and in tune in discernment".

I think the Buddha on multiple occasions made statements to the effect that caste is not by any means a predicator for insight, or morality, or any good and noble human quality.

The way the Buddha spoke about Brahmins can be a bit confusing. Because sometimes he was mocking Brahmins and their ways as they were in the world at that time, and sometimes he held high the ideal of a Brahmin as someone who had attained some wisdom, even using the term Brahmin as an honorary designation for a true monk and contemplative in his own dispensation.

See for example the Vasala Sutta (Sn 1.7): Discourse on Outcasts.
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Re: "Dogs do it better"

Post by perkele »

Sovatthika wrote: Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:49 am
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:57 am Hi Individual,

The only thing that comes to mind is the Soṇa Sutta (AN. iii. 221-2), where the Buddha describes the five ways in which dogs are better than brahmins, owing to the latter's discarding of their ancient customs. It's one of a series of suttas where the Buddha decries how the brahmins of his day had degenerated. To paraphrase:

1. Dogs only have sex with other dogs, whereas brahmins, though formerly having sex only with other brahmins, nowadays will do it with women from any caste.
2. Dogs only have sex when the bitch is in season, whereas brahmins will do it at any time.
3. Dogs don't buy and sell bitches, but rather, will mate according to mutual affection. Brahmins do buy and sell lady brahmins.
4. Dogs don't hoard silver, gold, grain etc., but brahmins do.
5. Dogs go looking for their evening meal in the evening and their morning meal in the morning. Brahmins stuff themselves silly and then keep the leftovers for the next meal.

"Verily, bhikkhus, these are the five ancient brahmin dhammas that are nowadays practised by dogs but not by brahmins."

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
can someone source this sutta for me. i thought sona sutta was where the deva asked buddha if he was a human
http://awake.kiev.ua/dhamma/tipitaka/2S ... ggo-e.html

There are often multiple suttas bearing the same title, in this case Soṇa perhaps being the name of someone (perhaps some brahmin) who was present when the discourse was held, someone who prompted the Buddha to speak this way, or something.
I think those sutta titles are also by no means canonical. I have seen many suttas being referred to by multiple different names.
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