Why one meal a day?

A place to discuss health and fitness, healthy diets. A fit body makes for a fit mind.
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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:34 pm

That sounds like a convenient narrative to justify institutionalized rules and regulations.

I'm fine with rules. We just need to update accordingly and, as rational free-willed people, make strategic decisions in our behaviour.

I think being dogmatic and attached to scriptural precepts are cause for the Dhamma's decline, not its increase.

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equilibrium
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby equilibrium » Mon Aug 12, 2013 4:03 pm

Indrajala wrote:Robes don't make the monk. I would argue precepts don't make the monk either. Renunciation of saṃsāra is what does.

The above is the most amazing reading in this website so far for me.....
It is not on the surface.....it is not what you follow.....it is whether you have crossed the line!.....the main point of it all!

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby fabianfred » Mon Aug 12, 2013 10:41 pm

equilibrium wrote:
Indrajala wrote:Robes don't make the monk. I would argue precepts don't make the monk either. Renunciation of saṃsāra is what does.

The above is the most amazing reading in this website so far for me.....
It is not on the surface.....it is not what you follow.....it is whether you have crossed the line!.....the main point of it all!

all those who are practicing determined to reach Nibbana are renouncing samsara....but that doesn't make them monks.....in fact there are probably more lay people aiming for release than monks since most monks do not practice.

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:43 am

Simply put, I don't think precepts really have the intended effect.

In an institutionalized setting, you go through the motions of "receiving precepts" and this somehow makes you into a field of merit. The laity then feel happy to bow down and make offerings, maybe getting some kind of religious high from the act of piety. However, once you know how monasticism really works and what goes on when laypeople are not around, then you see how efficacious precepts really are.

I'm well aware people are emotionally invested in a system that doesn't work as well as they believe it does, so my views are fringe and ultimately won't matter so much. In any case, as Buddhism develops in the west, I sincerely hope people exercise critical thinking and don't try to recreate failing Asian paradigms in the new cultures.

Also, if you look at things from an objective perspective, there are often curious historical examples of deviation from prescription. While Theravada has presumably always had precepts, for the longest time China and Japan got by in their monasticism with minimal and/or absolutely no Indian Vinaya system. I wrote something about this:

http://huayanzang.blogspot.com/2013/06/ ... inaya.html

That means you can have vibrant and sustained Buddhism without strict adherence to scriptural precepts.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2013 1:59 am

Hi Indrajala
I am just trying to understand what your message is.
Are you suggesting that I can realise Nirvana without following Eight Noble Path and not knowing Four Noble Truths?
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:01 am

Indrajala, If you are as it seems a Mahayana buddhist, what are you doing on a Therevada forum putting down our scriptures and traditions, I think the Dharma wheel might be more receptive to this. Buddhism is built on a foundation of moral behaviour as exemplified by the precepts, further progress beyond the basics is not really possible without the ground work of the precepts and moral behaviour, If you think you have a better way perhaps you should start your own order.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:03 am

SarathW wrote:Are you suggesting that I can realise Nirvana without following Eight Noble Path and not knowing Four Noble Truths?
:)


I'm suggesting it doesn't require refraining from dinner.

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:11 am

lyndon taylor wrote:Indrajala, If you are as it seems a Mahayana buddhist, what are you doing on a Therevada forum putting down our scriptures and traditions, I think the Dharma wheel might be more receptive to this. Buddhism is built on a foundation of moral behaviour as exemplified by the precepts, further progress beyond the basics is not really possible without the ground work of the precepts and moral behaviour, If you think you have a better way perhaps you should start your own order.


You've clearly misunderstood what I've been saying.

I'm not putting down anything. I'm proposing critical thought and strategic reforms rather than dogmatic attachment to rules and forms. Where have I said that we can do away without morality? Morality is about not harming others. Dietary regulations are another matter.

I'm simply saying that refraining from dinner, at least out in public in front of laypeople, isn't really relevant in today's world, at least outside Theravada countries where people maybe become emotionally compromised seeing a monk eat past noon (meanwhile they're testing out their new amulets on chickens).

We don't need that kind of neurosis in western countries.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:17 am

So your saying we need monks with less discipline, not more???? If being a monk was supposed to be easy, there would be eating after 12pm, sleeping with converts, jewelry and loud music playing at temples, some how I think things are just fine in Therevada traditions, maybe you should take your ideas to the mahayana community, they are much more likely to eat after 12 etc.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:19 am

So what you are saying is refraining from dinner is just an ethical requirement and not a virtue (Sila)?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:22 am

So what you are saying is refraining from dinner is just an ethical requirement and not a virtue (Sila)?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:32 am

Not eating after noon is a social convention.

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:34 am

lyndon taylor wrote:So your saying we need monks with less discipline, not more???? If being a monk was supposed to be easy, there would be eating after 12pm, sleeping with converts, jewelry and loud music playing at temples, some how I think things are just fine in Therevada traditions, maybe you should take your ideas to the mahayana community, they are much more likely to eat after 12 etc.


Eating dinner does not necessarily entail sleeping with converts, wearing jewellery and playing loud music in the temple.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:37 am

I think refraining from dinner is an ethical conduct for a Theravada Monk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:40 am

Obviously you haven't bothered to read all the comments in the thread, as the topic of why monks don't eat after 12pm was covered in the first couple pages, to make one more alert, to build discipline, to make aquiring meals easier etc etc. If your going to go on a crusade to change Buddhism, surely you could think of something more in need of change than this.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John

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Anagarika
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Anagarika » Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:57 am

I'm simply saying that refraining from dinner, at least out in public in front of laypeople, isn't really relevant in today's world, at least outside Theravada countries where people maybe become emotionally compromised seeing a monk eat past noon (meanwhile they're testing out their new amulets on chickens).


Missing the point once again, and taking a potshot at the Thai people (amulets on chickens...really?). Perhaps you'll get a chance to visit Thailand one day, and experience the intellect and friendliness of the Thais, along with their amazing culture, world class business environment, and advanced medical and academic institutions. For someone who has written with some level of scholarship on the Mahayana front, there seems to be almost a juvenile effort at pejoratives toward Thai Theravada. Very disappointing, very uncool and very not-so-dharmic IMO. No matter which school one might be from on these forums, there really needs to be a modicum of respect. It's hardly fitting for the ordained, or the laity for that matter, to take cartoonish shots at another country's perceived customs.

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Indrajala
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:20 am

So, eating past noon is bad, but selling amulets and other questionable practices is okay because it is part of the culture?

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:14 am

Hi Ven. Indrajala,

All of this might even be moot. Theravada monastics don't eat beyond noon, but as you know are allowed the 'tonics' / medicine as needed. And there are varying interpretations of what makes a monk "ill". One who is very hungry and in pain might be interpreted as "ill" at some monasteries and then apparently eat some solid foods. Chocolate is also considered medicine, from what I have heard (dark chocolate without dairy). The violation for consuming food when not ill is also not considered a major offense.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby santa100 » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:18 am

Indrajala, you've been giving the same kind of response whenever I cited sutta references about the importance of precepts (specifically the eating rule for monks). When I cited MN 65, MN 66, MN 69, MN 70, and AN 3.70, you responded:
That sounds a bit too institutional to me, which leads me to think it was a later addition


Then a second time, regarding AN 10.31, you responded:
That sounds like a convenient narrative to justify institutionalized rules and regulations.


So beside brushing aside the Vinaya Pitaka, you're also brushing aside many important portions of the Sutta Pitaka. Here's my third and last sutta reference for you. I've done my part here and have nothing more to say. Peace..
And the Lord said to Ananda: ‘Ananda, it may be that you will think: “The Teacher’s instruction has ceased, now we have no teacher!” It should not be seen like this, Ananda, for what I have taught and explained to you as Dhamma and Discipline will, at my passing, be your teacher. ~~ DN 16: Mahaparinibbana Sutta ( http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... at-passing ) ~~

SarathW
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:36 am

Hi Indrajala
Irrespective of Vinaya, I think there are lot of benefits for not having dinner. Please refer to the following link.
Not only Buddhism but all religions recognise the benefit of fasting.
I have never fast in my life. It is not an easy step for me. I have some practical issues, because I am a lay follower.
So now I try to have my last meal at 6.00pm.Gradually I am trying to bring that forward to 12.00 noon.
I already reap the benefit of my little effort.
So I suggest you just try and see whether there are any benefits for you by fasting irrespective of all other institutional issues.

:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting

Metta
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”


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