Why one meal a day?

A place to discuss health and fitness, healthy diets. A fit body makes for a fit mind.
User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Wandering
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Indrajala »

lyndon taylor wrote:So your saying we need monks with less discipline, not more???? If being a monk was supposed to be easy, there would be eating after 12pm, sleeping with converts, jewelry and loud music playing at temples, some how I think things are just fine in Therevada traditions, maybe you should take your ideas to the mahayana community, they are much more likely to eat after 12 etc.
Eating dinner does not necessarily entail sleeping with converts, wearing jewellery and playing loud music in the temple.
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by SarathW »

I think refraining from dinner is an ethical conduct for a Theravada Monk.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
lyndon taylor
Posts: 1835
Joined: Mon May 02, 2011 11:41 pm
Location: Redlands, US occupied Northern Mexico
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by lyndon taylor »

Obviously you haven't bothered to read all the comments in the thread, as the topic of why monks don't eat after 12pm was covered in the first couple pages, to make one more alert, to build discipline, to make aquiring meals easier etc etc. If your going to go on a crusade to change Buddhism, surely you could think of something more in need of change than this.
Last edited by lyndon taylor on Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Anagarika »

I'm simply saying that refraining from dinner, at least out in public in front of laypeople, isn't really relevant in today's world, at least outside Theravada countries where people maybe become emotionally compromised seeing a monk eat past noon (meanwhile they're testing out their new amulets on chickens).
Missing the point once again, and taking a potshot at the Thai people (amulets on chickens...really?). Perhaps you'll get a chance to visit Thailand one day, and experience the intellect and friendliness of the Thais, along with their amazing culture, world class business environment, and advanced medical and academic institutions. For someone who has written with some level of scholarship on the Mahayana front, there seems to be almost a juvenile effort at pejoratives toward Thai Theravada. Very disappointing, very uncool and very not-so-dharmic IMO. No matter which school one might be from on these forums, there really needs to be a modicum of respect. It's hardly fitting for the ordained, or the laity for that matter, to take cartoonish shots at another country's perceived customs.
User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Wandering
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Indrajala »

So, eating past noon is bad, but selling amulets and other questionable practices is okay because it is part of the culture?
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17169
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by DNS »

Hi Ven. Indrajala,

All of this might even be moot. Theravada monastics don't eat beyond noon, but as you know are allowed the 'tonics' / medicine as needed. And there are varying interpretations of what makes a monk "ill". One who is very hungry and in pain might be interpreted as "ill" at some monasteries and then apparently eat some solid foods. Chocolate is also considered medicine, from what I have heard (dark chocolate without dairy). The violation for consuming food when not ill is also not considered a major offense.
santa100
Posts: 6799
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by santa100 »

Indrajala, you've been giving the same kind of response whenever I cited sutta references about the importance of precepts (specifically the eating rule for monks). When I cited MN 65, MN 66, MN 69, MN 70, and AN 3.70, you responded:
That sounds a bit too institutional to me, which leads me to think it was a later addition
Then a second time, regarding AN 10.31, you responded:
That sounds like a convenient narrative to justify institutionalized rules and regulations.
So beside brushing aside the Vinaya Pitaka, you're also brushing aside many important portions of the Sutta Pitaka. Here's my third and last sutta reference for you. I've done my part here and have nothing more to say. Peace..
And the Lord said to Ananda: ‘Ananda, it may be that you will think: “The Teacher’s instruction has ceased, now we have no teacher!” It should not be seen like this, Ananda, for what I have taught and explained to you as Dhamma and Discipline will, at my passing, be your teacher. ~~ DN 16: Mahaparinibbana Sutta ( http://palicanon.org/index.php/sutta-pi ... at-passing ) ~~
SarathW
Posts: 21184
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by SarathW »

Hi Indrajala
Irrespective of Vinaya, I think there are lot of benefits for not having dinner. Please refer to the following link.
Not only Buddhism but all religions recognise the benefit of fasting.
I have never fast in my life. It is not an easy step for me. I have some practical issues, because I am a lay follower.
So now I try to have my last meal at 6.00pm.Gradually I am trying to bring that forward to 12.00 noon.
I already reap the benefit of my little effort.
So I suggest you just try and see whether there are any benefits for you by fasting irrespective of all other institutional issues.

:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasting

Metta
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Kumara
Posts: 995
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:14 am
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Kumara »

santa100 wrote:Indrajala, you've been giving the same kind of response whenever I cited sutta references about the importance of precepts (specifically the eating rule for monks).... I've done my part here and have nothing more to say. Peace..
Wise move. :-)
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4644
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

This is a Theravāda Forum — which not really the place to discuss Mahāyāna views.

My Last Word on the Matter
“It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathāgata to take life. But if a tamable person does not submit either to a mild training or to a harsh training or to a mild and harsh training, then the Tathāgata does not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally destroyed in the Doctrine and Discipline, when the Tathāgata does not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's knowledgeable fellows in the holy life do not regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing.”
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Wandering
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Indrajala »

David N. Snyder wrote:Theravada monastics don't eat beyond noon, but as you know are allowed the 'tonics' / medicine as needed.
The other day I was at a Tibetan temple here in Singapore and a visiting Sri Lankan monk had a curry puff pastry and fruit with us. My Tibetan monk friend also took him out and a few other Sri Lankan bhikkhus for Indian grub in the evening. Eating dinner is fine with them provided they are not in a Theravadan community and/or the laity are not watching them. They clearly didn't care.

So, yes, Theravadan monastics do in fact eat past noon when it isn't an issue with the public. Once you get to know how monasticism works in any country, you quickly learn that there is what happens in public and then what happens when laity are not around.

I personally prefer upfront honesty. If you're going to eat dinner, just eat dinner.
User avatar
Indrajala
Posts: 87
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:27 pm
Location: Wandering
Contact:

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Indrajala »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:This is a Theravāda Forum — which not really the place to discuss Mahāyāna views.
The Chinese have a Dharmagupta Vinaya lineage, which is not Mahāyāna. They eat dinner, too. They call it "medicine meal".
plwk
Posts: 1462
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 5:14 am

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by plwk »

I guess Ven Indrajala, this thread is discussing what it should be and not what it really is happening...
I too have my own experiences with such but what's the point of repeating about the obvious elephant in the room when the elephant knows it's not suppose to be there?

Just like the late Master Xuan Hua and his Dharmaguptaka monastics in CTTB who observe the one meal a day before noon practice, yeah there were cases of some who didn't live up to this rule and other Vinaya related matters, when it came to his ears, they organised a major purification and repentance to recommit and reaffirmation of their core ascetic practices. They didn't just caved in just because a few can't manage it? I guess when one takes up a formal discipline, there's a duty of care involved and not when people are not looking thingy... Maybe that's why they have such strong admirer and friendship with the Ajahn Chah's Thai Forest Tradition circle via Ajahn Sumedho?

There's also a story of how he manage to catch one of his monastic Western disciple who was about to sink his teeth into a berry pie in a hidden corner at night... that one cracked me up lol

And remember I had that convo with a user on the sister site in your own thread 'Emotion and Reason'? What did the 'Sayadaw' told him?
A few years ago I met a friend who is a Buddhist monk at the railway station. I expressed my concern that his travel arrangements had prevented him from eating that day. He replied that I should not be too concerned because he would eat a sandwich when he finally arrived at his destination. I remarked that this would be after twelve and hence in contravention of his monastic rules, to which he smiled and said, 'Who exactly is it that sets these rules to restrict my behaviour...it's me isn't it?'

And when I was hard and tough on the user's story, this retort came back...
In my post I should have made it clear out that the gentleman in question is a legendary Sayadaw who has been a flawless monk since the age of seven.

This is what I get? Using a Sayadaw title to perhaps hint to me, 'so, what? do you know who is so and so?'
I am still an advocate for the upholding of the standards. If others can't do it, it doesn't mean the standards have to keep bending backwards, be they a Samanera, Sayadaw, Ajahn all the way into the Dharmaguptakas and Mulasarvastivada circles...
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by daverupa »

Indrajala wrote:I sincerely hope people exercise critical thinking and don't try to recreate failing Asian paradigms in the new cultures.
This is a good point, although ideally the critical thinking would be an interface between the local laity and the monastics, I think. The Buddha allowed for this interface while also legislating according to the training, and I'm of a mind to consider local input the minor, mutable aspect.
Indrajala wrote:The Chinese have a Dharmagupta Vinaya lineage, which is not Mahāyāna. They eat dinner, too. They call it "medicine meal".
So this is an example, perhaps, of a culture massaging the Vinaya into local cultural compliance, something David Snyder mentioned as a medicinal exception in certain cases here being writ large in the case of the Chinese, living in a colder climate as well as undergoing other differing laity variables.

What should we want? Enshrining the reality in local Vinayas (which I think is actually called for in the Vinaya itself), or a "unified Buddhism" with a "worldwide Vinaya"? Is it appropriate if local flavors should take on Nationalistic flavors, including local Vinaya hierarchies?

There are some key issues to do with local necessity versus global unity in Buddhism which are a Herculean task to address... this begins to approach one facet of that monster, I think.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Anagarika
Posts: 915
Joined: Thu Sep 22, 2011 11:25 pm

Re: Eating after midday.

Post by Anagarika »

Indrajala wrote:So, eating past noon is bad, but selling amulets and other questionable practices is okay because it is part of the culture?
Respectfully, eating past midday violates the precepts. Selling amulets is a Thai custom, but the serious (esp. farang) monks in Thailand don't do this; not at my Wat in any case (serious Thai abbot w Ph.D. from Indian university). And, in many Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana traditions, the precepts still matter. To repeat my earlier post, Dr. Fronsdal's perspective on the importance of ritual resonates. Going beyond, ritual, if a practice is considered driven by the Buddha's directive, then who are we to toss it aside in favor of modern convention? I think Ven. Indrajala makes a good point suggesting that ritual should not trump common sense or upaya/skillful means, but some foundational rituals may have societal, subconscious, and/or physical benefits along with the important symbolic benefit. I don't think there will ever be a day that Theravada and some Mahayana schools will dispense with the rule against eating a meal after midday. For the same reason, I don't see the day when the ordained in these traditions are wearing chinos and golf shirts, and not shaving their heads, as Tom Peppers suggests.

Perhaps this is why when at the time of the Buddha's passing he was asked who would succeed him, and he instructed that the Dhamma would be his successor. So, in Buddhism we have no pope to tell us whether we can eat after midday or not. I might guess that the Buddha understood the Vinaya to be well enough understood that its precepts would be the roadmap for those on the path. So, it's up to all of us to determine how serious and focused we wish our own practice to be. For the ordained, I feel that disregard of the Vinaya is the classic slippery slope that will lead to the Dhamma being diluted to the point of nonrecognition, one of the Buddha's great concerns. It didn't happen in the 500 years he predicted, but it's happening now quite nicely in the west. see http://www.flickr.com/photos/kanzeon_ze ... 525009624/
Post Reply