Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:24 pm

SarathW wrote:Hi Starter
What Buddha taught was:
1 Anicca; 2 Dukkha; 3 Anatta

:)


Hello SarathW,

Anicca leads to Dukkha, Dukkha leads to Anatta, Anatta leads to Non-Conceiving, Non-Conceiving leads to Nibbana.

Thanks and Metta!

Starter
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby SarathW » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:24 am

I am not sure whether Dukkha lead to Anatta.

As far as I know there is nothing called Anatta. It is just the word you to describe the impersonality of the things.
For example a scientist may say there is no absolute and permanent thing called water, it is H2O.
Buddha may say Water is Anatta because it is H2o.

The way I understand Dukkha lead to Saddha (faith)
Please someone correct me if I am wrong.
:)
SarathW
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Wed Jul 24, 2013 3:34 pm

SarathW wrote:I am not sure whether Dukkha lead to Anatta.
:)


Please see the Buddha's 2nd discourse to his first 5 disciples, and a MN discourse in which the Buddha won the debate with a very proud asetic and convinced him it's not suitable to take something dukkha as atta. Sorry I forgot the number and name of the discourses.

Metta!
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ= undefiled mind =nibbana?

Postby starter » Sun Aug 11, 2013 2:25 am

Hi I'd like to let the friends know that the first post of this thread has been updated with some new information and my updated understanding, which can be briefly summarized as:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [non-manifestive mind, mind non-indicative or non-manifestive or empty of defilements; signless -- no sign of lust/hate/delusion]
= appatiṭṭha viññāṇa [consciousness unestablished/nongenerative, not established upon name and form]
= "immeasurable mind" (immeasurable of lust/hate/delusion)
="unrestricted mind", "unbound mind", "mind without barriers": unrestricted/unbound by defilements
= living arahant’s mind
=nibbana with residue


Some more thoughts:

1) Does an arahant dwelling at the stage of cessation of perception and feeling (Nibbana) still have a “mind”?

-- I’d say yes, but with no consciousness; it’s supramundane (not the mind with assavas in mundane sense), the unconditioned nibbana.

2) What happens when an arahant dies?

-- When an arahant dies, nama-rupa and 6 types of sense consciousness cease together, and there will be no rebirth consciousness. His “mind” is completely liberated without residue.

I think it's important to understand consciousness and nibbana:

"Pañña & Viññāṇa, friend: Of these qualities that are conjoined, not disjoined, Pañña is to be developed, Viññāṇa is to be fully comprehended." (MN 43)

Thanks and metta!
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Postby starter » Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:54 am

Hi I'd like to let the friends know that I've just updated the first post of this thread again with my new understanding:

viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ" [consciousness non-manifesting] = cessation of consciousness = nibbana without residue [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling, when experiencing the cessation of the five aggregates (the residue)]

appatiṭṭha viññāṇa [(mind with) consciousness unestablished/nongenerative, not established upon name and form]
= living arahant’s mind (when not dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) = nibbana with residue

Thanks and metta!
Last edited by starter on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibba

Postby SarathW » Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:07 am

Hi Starter

You said:
nibbana without residue = [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling]

The way I understand that Nirodha Samapatti ( dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling) is not the Nibbana.
But it is the highest state can be experience by a living Arahant.
=======================
Please also read:

The 2 aspects of Nibbāna are:

1: The full ceasing of defilements kilesa-parinibbāna also called sa-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, i.e. 'Nibbāna with the groups of existence still remaining' see: upādi. This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect Nobility see: ariya-puggala.

2: The full ceasing of the groups of existence khandha-parinibbāna also called an-upādi-sesa-nibbāna see: It. 41, A. IV, 118, i.e. 'Nibbāna without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - App.: Nibbāna

http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... dic3_n.htm
SarathW
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibba

Postby starter » Sat Aug 17, 2013 11:55 pm

Dear SarathW,

Many thanks for trying to help me. I'd like to ask you and other friends to continue to tell me if you notice (or think) any wrong views/mistakes or inappropriate speech/actions from me, big or small. Please don’t be afraid of offending me. I've been practicing alone (physically) and need the camaraderies' support. Your kind intention and effort would always be appreciated.

I agree with the definitions of the two types of nibbana that you cited, though I tend to consider the sphere of cessation of perception and feeling (and vinnana) as a taste of nibbana without residue, because the five aggregates have temporarily "disappeared" or disassociated with citta.

Much metta!

Starter
starter
 
Posts: 872
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:56 pm

Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibba

Postby SarathW » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:10 am

Hi Starter
The way I understand your statement:
nibbana without residue = [& dwelling in the cessation of perception and feeling]
is not correct .
====================
But you are correct in regards to the following:

This transcendental state is Nirodha Samāpattithat is, experiencing Nibbāna in this life itself.
Page 399:
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf

:)
SarathW
 
Posts: 2568
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Previous

Return to General Theravāda discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alex123, Bing [Bot], Kalama, Majestic-12 [Bot] and 7 guests