Eating after midday.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Aug 13, 2013 10:16 pm

SarathW wrote:Q1:Will the lay Stream-winner eat after midday?
This question is based on :
===========================

Verse 11: Scrupulous Integrity
Another special quality of a Stream-winner is transparent honesty and scrupulous integrity. Although they are not yet free from greed, hatred, and delusion, Stream-winners are completely free from immorality. A monk who is a Stream-winner may sometimes fall into offences due to heedlessness, but when reminded that such an action is an offence against a training rule laid down by the Buddha, or realising this by himself on reflection, he does not conceal it, but makes amends in the prescribed way. One who wishes to attain Stream-winning should be equally scrupulous, seeing fear in the slightest fault.

For example: to eat after midday is an offence for a bhikkhu. Each mouthful taken is an offence to be confessed (pācittiya). If he thinks it is before midday when it is not, it is still an offence. If it is before midday, but he thinks it is after midday, or he is doubtful, it is an offence of wrong-doing (dukkata). A Stream-winner would not take a single morsel of food if he thought it was after midday, as to do so would be shameless. Due to unmindfulness he might do so, but afterwards he would confess his offence. Stream-winners have a keen desire to follow the training rules and readily confess their offences if they do fall into any — they are not disobedient.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Ratana/ratana.html

yes if they have undertaken the eight precepts, but no if they have undertaken the five!
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:01 am

BuddhaSoup wrote: The assembled monks agreed that the recitations were accurate. These recitations became the basis for the Sutta-pitika and the Vinaya-pitika of the Pali Tipitika."


Even if we accept this, it still doesn't address the autocratic decision made by Mahākassapa. Ānanda provided a reliable testimony where the Buddha is said to have stated the minor rules were to be dropped. The Buddha was fine with reform.

I don't understand the level of attachment a lot of members here show towards archaic regulations. Most Theravada bhikkhus I know are pretty relaxed.

No need to be more Catholic than the Pope. :sage:
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby plwk » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:34 am

Errr Ven, even Pope Francis got a correction by the Vatican recently, no? :mrgreen:
Bhikkhus, if you develop and make much this one thing,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.
What is it? It is recollecting the Enlightened One.
If this single thing is recollected and made much,
it invariably leads to weariness, cessation, appeasement, realization and extinction.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:40 am

For the second time, Indrajala, NOT EATING AFTER 12PM IS NOT A MINOR RULE, its one of the ten precepts, THE MAJOR RULES.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:40 am

Indrajala wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote: The assembled monks agreed that the recitations were accurate. These recitations became the basis for the Sutta-pitika and the Vinaya-pitika of the Pali Tipitika."


Even if we accept this, it still doesn't address the autocratic decision made by Mahākassapa. Ānanda provided a reliable testimony where the Buddha is said to have stated the minor rules were to be dropped. The Buddha was fine with reform.


It's quite true, and I think Buddhist monasticism will need to look different in the future in order to best exist alongside lay support... unless, you think monasteries should seek moderate self-sufficiency as a general rule? Farming, investment, etc. alongside donations?
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby dagon » Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:49 am

Indrajala wrote:
BuddhaSoup wrote: The assembled monks agreed that the recitations were accurate. These recitations became the basis for the Sutta-pitika and the Vinaya-pitika of the Pali Tipitika."


Even if we accept this, it still doesn't address the autocratic decision made by Mahākassapa. Ānanda provided a reliable testimony where the Buddha is said to have stated the minor rules were to be dropped. The Buddha was fine with reform.

I don't understand the level of attachment a lot of members here show towards archaic regulations. Most Theravada bhikkhus I know are pretty relaxed.

No need to be more Catholic than the Pope. :sage:


Ven Indrajala - perhaps you could help me - i was taught that The Buddha said that the minor rule could be dropped, whereas you have stated were to be dropped. i think that there is a very significant difference between to two options.

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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:35 pm

There are about 227 rules in the Vinaya, an example of a minor rule might be the rule aginast picking flowers or killing plants for monks, that's a minor rule, perhaps, The 10 precepts for monks are not minor rules at all, and when the Buddha said some minor rules could be left behind, I'm fairly certain he wasn't in any way refering to the 10 precepts, which are Major rules. In any case as I remember it the monks had a council after the buddha made this statement and decided not to change any of the rules, obviously the buddha didn't tell them outright to drop the minor rules, otherwise they would have done so.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:47 pm

daverupa wrote:It's quite true, and I think Buddhist monasticism will need to look different in the future in order to best exist alongside lay support... unless, you think monasteries should seek moderate self-sufficiency as a general rule? Farming, investment, etc. alongside donations?


In the west when funding from immigrants and Asia dry up, then monastics will have to be partially or fully self-sufficient. Think growing food (tilling the earth), selling speciality products (like Christian monastics: honey, cheese, etc.) and not relying on handouts. I don't see western cultures supporting Vinaya monasticism in the long-term.

How many of the big monasteries in the west are primarily funded by western benefactors, I wonder? Not many.
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Anagarika » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:19 pm

I see the above as two different questions. Whether a monk should abstain from sex, not eat after midday, maintain a shaved head (and no longer than 2 fingers' length), wear robes, sleep in a low and simple bed, etc, etc is a different question than how monasteries in the west will adapt to changing support environments. Some of the minor rules or functional rules may need to be adapted to economic circumstances. I still do not see a day when good bhikkhus and bhikkhunis give up the precepts on an ad hoc bases. There are sound reasons for the maintenance of the behavioral precepts, and I and others have written enough on the issue. It's still my view that the evolution away from the Vinaya precepts (and the Bodhisattva precepts for that matter) has been a primary cause of some of the dysfunction in Buddhist communities in the west. So many of the abuses of trust and scandals have centered around disregard for the major precepts. Maintenance of the major precepts instills confidence and trust, both within the monk, and within the sangha that includes the laity. To suggest otherwise is a laissez-faire approach that leads to troublesome events.
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:27 pm

BuddhaSoup wrote:It's still my view that the evolution away from the Vinaya precepts (and the Bodhisattva precepts for that matter) has been a primary cause of some of the dysfunction in Buddhist communities in the west.


Buddhism in the west is largely a fringe religion amongst native westerners, so it attracts fringe people, not ordinary folk. That's why you get a lot of crazies and unsettled people who with our without the Vinaya will cause trouble.
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby lyndon taylor » Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Yeah we from time to time get them on these forums!!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community that has so generously given me so much, sincerely former monk John
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby Indrajala » Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:14 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:Yeah we from time to time get them on these forums!!!


Guilty as charged. :toast:
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Re: Eating after midday.

Postby SarathW » Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:04 am

Cittasanto wrote:
SarathW wrote:Q1:Will the lay Stream-winner eat after midday?
This question is based on :
===========================

Verse 11: Scrupulous Integrity
Another special quality of a Stream-winner is transparent honesty and scrupulous integrity. Although they are not yet free from greed, hatred, and delusion, Stream-winners are completely free from immorality. A monk who is a Stream-winner may sometimes fall into offences due to heedlessness, but when reminded that such an action is an offence against a training rule laid down by the Buddha, or realising this by himself on reflection, he does not conceal it, but makes amends in the prescribed way. One who wishes to attain Stream-winning should be equally scrupulous, seeing fear in the slightest fault.

For example: to eat after midday is an offence for a bhikkhu. Each mouthful taken is an offence to be confessed (pācittiya). If he thinks it is before midday when it is not, it is still an offence. If it is before midday, but he thinks it is after midday, or he is doubtful, it is an offence of wrong-doing (dukkata). A Stream-winner would not take a single morsel of food if he thought it was after midday, as to do so would be shameless. Due to unmindfulness he might do so, but afterwards he would confess his offence. Stream-winners have a keen desire to follow the training rules and readily confess their offences if they do fall into any — they are not disobedient.
http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Ratana/ratana.html

yes if they have undertaken the eight precepts, but no if they have undertaken the five!



Thanks Cittasanto. I have some further questions.

Q2:Will the lay once returner (Sakdagami) eat after midday?
Q3:Will the lay Non returner (Anagami) eat after midday?
Q4)Will the lay Arahnat eat after midday?
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