There is nothing wrong with remorse and the dread of wrong-doing which is probably better termed qualms or scrupels in English. But this is a far cry from shame and fear. It goes to show how important precise translations are. I have assumed the meanings that were used in the original article cited by the thread starter, i.e. the ones that Bikkhu Bodhi used, which were shame and fear. Remorse and scrupels are indicators for what we call conscience. Obviously, highly developed ethics imply a highly developed conscience.
The question is then: how do you inspire remorse and scrupulousness? I guess this would only be possible by showing how actions are related to consequences and what exactly the effects of (unskilful) action are. In other words, it is only possible by coming to an understanding, primarily by direct seeing, of the suffering that certain actions cause. For example, in case of murder this would mean that the perpetrator (murderer) needs to understand the immense grief and the immense loss of opportunity on a direct human level. Punishment does not produce remorse and scrupulousness, neither does blame or accusation. Such means are unskilful and should be avoided.
It is not so much that fear and shame have "gone out of fashion", but that society finally catches up with insights gained from research in psychology. A small paradigm shift perhaps, though I doubt that it has reached the majority yet.
Cheers, Thomas
Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
In answer to the orginal question, I suspect that trying to induce hiri-ottapa in others is futile. But I like Bhikku Bodhi's essay http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ay_23.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From a distinctly non-Buddhist source:In the present-day world, with its secularization of all values, such notions as shame and fear of wrong are bound to appear antiquated, relics from a puritanical past when superstition and dogma manacled our rights to uninhibited self-expression. Yet the Buddha's stress on the importance of hiri and ottappa was based on a deep insight into the different potentialities of human nature. He saw that the path to deliverance is a struggle against the current, and that if we are to unfold the mind's capacities for wisdom, purity and peace, then we need to keep the powderkeg of the defilements under the watchful eyes of diligent sentinels.
MikePreacher was a talkin' there's a sermon he gave,
He said every man's conscience is vile and depraved,
You cannot depend on it to be your guide
When it's you who must keep it satisfied.
It ain't easy to swallow, it sticks in the throat,
She gave her heart to the man
In the long black coat.
Bob Dylan
Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
Hi Thomas
To be clear, i have nothing but a very rudimentary knowledge of some pali words and no nothing of its grammatical structure. However, what I do know is that an understanding of nuances of some of the technical terms will shed light on points of the Dhamma that might be inaccessible if don't refer to the Pali.
I apologise if the extract from the definitive PTS dictionary, or the use of Pali words in my explanation, was a source of more confusion.
Kind regards
Ben
I found your comment above perplexing.Pannapetar wrote:I am sorry Ben, but can we speak English rather than Pali?
To be clear, i have nothing but a very rudimentary knowledge of some pali words and no nothing of its grammatical structure. However, what I do know is that an understanding of nuances of some of the technical terms will shed light on points of the Dhamma that might be inaccessible if don't refer to the Pali.
I apologise if the extract from the definitive PTS dictionary, or the use of Pali words in my explanation, was a source of more confusion.
Kind regards
Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road
Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725
Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief • UNHCR
e: [email protected]..
Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
That's a great link. Here's an extract:Chris wrote:Hello all,
This may be of interest:
Hiri Ottappa - Ajahn Jayasaro
http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/01/hi ... asaro.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
With regard to this:Hiri, that sense of shame or conscience is really a shrinking away from that which is inappropriate, the corollary of which is, that we should always consider the significance and appropriateness of our actions. We might consider that on a number of different levels such as what is appropriate on a wider scale, what is appropriate for us as human beings, what's appropriate in our relationships with others? What sort of principles are proper and correct, noble principles? How should we act towards the natural world,- the environment? We might look at the appropriateness of personal relationships towards mother, father, sister, brother, spouse, workmates and so on. We really need to consider what principles should underlie our conduct towards all these people, and as Buddhists, what is appropriate behaviour, speech, and thought?
The more we reflect upon these aspects of our behaviour, discriminating between the appropriate and the inappropriate, the more we train our mind, which then becomes more refined, sensitive, confidant and protected.
Ottappa is a reflection on Karma; that willingness and preparedness to stand back and think it through. We consider the whole process from the initial action ( with the ramifications both for ourselves and others) to the final results. The clearer our understanding, the stronger our reasoned faith in Kamma. There develops a wise fear, an intelligent fear based upon the painful consequences of our unskillful activities. These guiding forces or influences are not blind emotions although there is an emotional force there grounded in Wisdom and Understanding, an understanding of what is appropriate and what will result from our actions. Of course when the mind is intoxicated, full of negativity or craving, these are the very things we don't wish to think about because it just takes away so much of the excitement and enjoyment when we stop to consider "Is this really appropriate; What will be the consequences upon ourselves and other people?"
In the Abhidhamma, it states that every unwholesome mind state is accompanied by recklessness and shamelessness- the very opposites of Hiri and Ottappa. When Hiri and Ottappa are strong and resolute we have the brake of self-discipline which allows us to refrain from any pleasure of the immediate moment through realising it will lead ultimately to an increase in attachment, to fear, paranoia, anxiety, worry, sorrow and despair. When Hiri and Ottappa are present, then we can easily keep the Precepts as the basis for the spiritual life not only through their intellectual acceptance, but by the additional emotional support, as a friend and a strong force for protection.
I think that depends on how we go about helping to awaken hiri-ottappa in others. I imagine a wise teacher would be very good at it. But most of us are lousy at it and probably awaken righteous indignation instead.mikenz66 wrote:In answer to the orginal question, I suspect that trying to induce hiri-ottapa in others is futile.
Great feedback from everyone.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
Sorry to perplex you, Ben. That wasn't my intention. Just a bit too much Pali for me.Ben wrote:I found your comment above perplexing.
My guess is that moralistic teachings have always appeared antiquated, even in the ancient past. They simply have little appeal to the more intelligent and conscious segment of society. There is an important difference between moralism and morality. The former is associated with convention, authoritarian structures, and exoteric religion. The latter is associated with individual practice, non-authoritarian structures and esoteric religion. Perhaps the difference is embodied most clearly in the two most important philosophers of China, Confucius and Lao Tse. Overall, Buddhism is much more geared toward the latter.In the present-day world, with its secularization of all values, such notions as shame and fear of wrong are bound to appear antiquated, relics from a puritanical past when superstition and dogma manacled our rights to uninhibited self-expression.
Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
Sometimes, but usually not.Jechbi wrote:Is it generally appropriate to try to awaken hiri-ottappa in others through the practice of criticizing their behavior publicly? Personally, I think the answer is no. But I suspect many of us have tried to do this from time to time. Thoughts?
Precisely.Peter wrote:I'd say if I thought the person respected my opinion and responded well to criticism, then it can be appropriate.Jechbi wrote:I'd be interested in hearing more about those times when people feel it is appropriate.
Otherwise... (from the Dhammapada)
It's easy to see
the errors of others,
but hard to see
your own.
You winnow like chaff
the errors of others,
but conceal your own —
like a cheat, an unlucky throw.
If you focus on the errors of others,
constantly finding fault,
your effluents flourish.
You're far from their ending.
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
I think it takes a very poor intelligence to need psychology/science to understand or justify what is going on underneath the hood. Sometimes the evidence is missing or misleading (or research is too simplistic) - and we end up taking a partial truth to be the complete truth. Science itself denies having a final answer, yet we misread research findings as the absolute truth. If we know from mindfulness of our own minds and actions what actually happens we dont need psychology to somehow 'prove' it as well.
Society would do away with fines, prison and probation if punishment didnt help. If we look into ourselves we know that the threat of punishment, and the inevitability of it after the act has been committed, weighs into the decision whether we do something wrong or not. A person would be more inclined to do a bad deed if there was a chance that he/she would not be found out-say on a desert island- hence no punishment/consequence call it what you will. Where would you park your car if you would not be fined? Punishment and the threat of it works despite pop psychology.
As to how we can remind other to have hiri and otappa- well modelling good behavior comes to mind, setting ethical standards- saying them out loud before the fact helps, having deterents help, rewarding/praising good behaviour, frowning upon bad behaviour, direct advice in an appropriate setting (all about loosing face) if that is your role and/or if the person trusts you/is close to you. Contemplations which help remind people of morality help as well (meditation class setting). Reviewing (own) precepts help in improving them.
The concept of what it means to be intelligent also includes morality in the buddhas teaching, among other things:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Society would do away with fines, prison and probation if punishment didnt help. If we look into ourselves we know that the threat of punishment, and the inevitability of it after the act has been committed, weighs into the decision whether we do something wrong or not. A person would be more inclined to do a bad deed if there was a chance that he/she would not be found out-say on a desert island- hence no punishment/consequence call it what you will. Where would you park your car if you would not be fined? Punishment and the threat of it works despite pop psychology.
As to how we can remind other to have hiri and otappa- well modelling good behavior comes to mind, setting ethical standards- saying them out loud before the fact helps, having deterents help, rewarding/praising good behaviour, frowning upon bad behaviour, direct advice in an appropriate setting (all about loosing face) if that is your role and/or if the person trusts you/is close to you. Contemplations which help remind people of morality help as well (meditation class setting). Reviewing (own) precepts help in improving them.
The concept of what it means to be intelligent also includes morality in the buddhas teaching, among other things:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
I can't really blame you or anyone else for coming to this conclusion, because that is how society works and that is what society has conditioned you to think. However, your understanding is perhaps lacking in this point. Wrongdoing mainly exists because of ignorance and punishment likewise exists because of ignorance. They are just two jigsaw pieces of samsara. I don't expect society to become perfect anytime soon, but we already have moved from the concept of retribution to the concept of correction. That is progress. There is hope that one day we will move to the concept of rehabilitation, I mean not just the concept but its actual implementation.rowyourboat wrote:Society would do away with fines, prison and probation if punishment didnt help. [...] Punishment and the threat of it works despite pop psychology.
Moralism, deterrents, blaming, judging and retribution are all signs of a relatively primitive mindset. Basically you expressed this yourself when you said: "The concept of what it means to be intelligent also includes morality in the Buddha's teaching". Exactly my point.
Cheers, Thomas
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Re: Inspiring hiri-ottappa in others
Hi Thomas,
It is easy to state what the ideal situation should be (I agree with you what the ideal situation is), but the reality is far removed from our idealism. The reality is that there are people going around who don't have the time nor the inclination to think about morality, just going about the business of living. They are not mindful, nor are they religious or idealistic. This is ignorance, like you said. The Buddha could not eradicate ignorance in all human, so we are not going to succeed either. So then how do we make certain such people don't cause too much trouble? We build walls, we put in alarms, we have criminal records and fines- deterrents and punishments. That is how it is done. The Buddha understood very well the mind and behaviour of the unenlightened- if you look at the monastic code for monks you will see many rules and punishments for those monks who's conduct was not up to scratch. This is the only way defilements can be controlled - unless they take up the path to purification -then it is possible to have a society with no rules or regulations -as was the case with the early arahanths.
It is easy to state what the ideal situation should be (I agree with you what the ideal situation is), but the reality is far removed from our idealism. The reality is that there are people going around who don't have the time nor the inclination to think about morality, just going about the business of living. They are not mindful, nor are they religious or idealistic. This is ignorance, like you said. The Buddha could not eradicate ignorance in all human, so we are not going to succeed either. So then how do we make certain such people don't cause too much trouble? We build walls, we put in alarms, we have criminal records and fines- deterrents and punishments. That is how it is done. The Buddha understood very well the mind and behaviour of the unenlightened- if you look at the monastic code for monks you will see many rules and punishments for those monks who's conduct was not up to scratch. This is the only way defilements can be controlled - unless they take up the path to purification -then it is possible to have a society with no rules or regulations -as was the case with the early arahanths.
With Metta
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha