Is everything already determined?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:39 pm

Greetings


The other tread that was about Intelligent design got me looking at the Big bang theory again. Does the big bang mean that everything is already determined? The Big bang, in essence, set of a chain of events that, several billion years later, caused life to evolve on earth and for humans to come into existence. I mean if you trace everything backwards through cause and effect it leads to you the big bang


I know its a wrong view in Buddhism but physical science seems to prove it

So, has everything already been set, like how the last domino is already set to fall when the first one fell?


metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:44 pm

the last domino doesn't always fall just becayse the first did!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:57 pm

It does if the line isnt broken


Cause and effect has never had a kind of gap in it since the big bang



To expand the idea im putting out for debate is kinda a long these lines


everything that happens right now was decided billions of years ago by the movement of a few quarks, since if those quarks hadnt come together to form hadrons then matter wouldnt come to be and there would be nothing in the universe accept radiation. However quarks did go onto form hadrons which eventually gave birth to the atom and matter which then formed the galaxies, sun, planet, earth, life, human, craig, lives, get sick, old and dies.



(Im not a scientist by trade so i may be slightly off in what i said above in relation to the early universe, i wrote it from memory)

metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:04 pm

if no break in the chain could happen, then enlightenment is not possible.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:12 pm

Manapa wrote:if no break in the chain could happen, then enlightenment is not possible.




Difficult for me to answer this without resorting to the view of Makkhali Gosala


However as i said the big bang seems to give strong indications that everything was already determined at the begining of the universe


I suppose the question comes down to matter and mind, is everything predetermined accept for when there is mind to alter events or is mind determined a long with matter
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:00 pm

plus if things are predetermined then what would be the point in practice?
plus pre-determination doesn't only imply a design, but says there is a design where as design doesn't need the predetermination.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:04 pm

Manapa wrote:plus if things are predetermined then what would be the point in practice?
plus pre-determination doesn't only imply a design, but says there is a design where as design doesn't need the predetermination.





Sure it implies some kind of design, doesnt have to mean intelligent design though ;)

I wouldnt use that word though since people would take it as "god"

I cant make out the last bit of the sentence, do you mean that design doesnt need predetermination?


N.B. made a mistake using word predestination, have changed to more accurate "determined"

metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby cooran » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:33 pm

Hello clw_uk,

What caused the most recent Big Bang which 'formed' the Universe As We Know It? And the uncountable Big Bangs before that?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
cooran
 
Posts: 7485
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:44 pm

Science answer, quantum mechanics forbids determinism. Look up Heisenburg's uncertainty principal and enjoy :)
Mawkish1983
 
Posts: 1174
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:46 am
Location: Essex, UK

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:49 pm

Edit - corrected doesn't to does
Yes that is what I meant, and why I didn't use the word inteligent, some of what is classed in id isn't actually id but simply d.

predetermined or determined both imply action either one action which set every thing going in a course that could not be altered (predetermined) or many actions which alter the chain of events to come in some way (think of the weather and its effects on peoples mood) both imply the same thing just from a different angle (deist or monotheistic/pantheistic models althought the hindus have a rather interesting take which is half and half in some ways and to an extent so did the ancient greek although not developed in the same way)

here is a little list of the possibilities in both predetermined and determined but obviously not exhaustive

predetermined
doesn't matter what we do the end result is guaranteed no matter what, wither heaven or hell in the one two lives model, or enlightenment in the three life model, although if it is only a onelife model the same applies.

determined
this has several possibilities
deist - same as predetermined exept that everything that happens had an initial starting point and course which without other influences its target would fall in the predetermined bracket but as it does effects and alters the couse of everything else it comes into contact with.
science - same as above
theistic - miricles

these are just some of the possibilities off the top of my headand I do have another but will do another post in a min for that the scroll is hard to work with at this length?
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:59 pm

the other option (if I should of even called it that) is that the source be it called a deistic god, or a chain of causes and conditions which led to the knowable timeframe we live in (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years or so from .00005 of a second after the big bang if I remember the closest we can get to it at the moment) as Dawkin may say, is the cause of the universe is unknownso why bother thinking about it? for scientific inquiry and further development of our knowledge and ability - yes - but in day to day life no, here we are lets get on with it.

I am reminded of a sutta but can not thing which one or two
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:03 pm

Hi Mawkish
thanks didn't see your post before mine
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:05 pm

This sounds a lot like the free will vs. determinism debates.

Theists prefer free will
Atheists prefer determinism

Buddhas know Dependent Origination

:yingyang:

:meditate:
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8013
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:09 pm

TheDhamma wrote:This sounds a lot like the free will vs. determinism debates.

Theists prefer free will
Atheists prefer determinism

Buddhas know Dependent Origination

:yingyang:

:meditate:

:anjali:
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
Upāsaka Cittasanto
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
User avatar
Cittasanto
 
Posts: 5740
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:26 pm

Chris wrote:Hello clw_uk,

What caused the most recent Big Bang which 'formed' the Universe As We Know It? And the uncountable Big Bangs before that?

metta
Chris




Of course i dont know the answer, although Brane cosmology looks interesting to me

However why does there have to be a begining, everything could be endless and still determined

metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:28 pm

TheDhamma wrote:This sounds a lot like the free will vs. determinism debates.

Theists prefer free will
Atheists prefer determinism

Buddhas know Dependent Origination

:yingyang:

:meditate:



Why does D.O. include both? Also i wonder, does D.O. relate to the physical or just the mental?

It was after all a teaching of how dukkha arises, which is mental, so speaking in terms of determinism based on matter i dont know if D.O. comes into it

metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:33 pm

determined
this has several possibilities
deist - same as predetermined exept that everything that happens had an initial starting point and course which without other influences its target would fall in the predetermined bracket but as it does effects and alters the couse of everything else it comes into contact with.
science - same as above
theistic - miricles


There is a difference between the deist and science version of it, deist involves some kind of being or intelligence behind it, perhaps even intentional or not. Science leaves that out


Just because something is determined doesnt mean there is or was something doing the determining

metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:34 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Why does D.O. include both?


I'm not a buddha / arahant, but from my limited understanding everything is conditioned, but there is volition and effort and with Right Effort we can open up more and more possibilities, a sort of mix of some free will in a very deterministic world.
User avatar
David N. Snyder
Site Admin
 
Posts: 8013
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:46 pm

Mawkish1983 wrote:Science answer, quantum mechanics forbids determinism. Look up Heisenburg's uncertainty principal and enjoy :)



Thanks Mawkish, forgot about quantum mechanics lol



metta
“ Your mind is likewise blocked. But the right road awaits you still. Cast out your doubts, your fears and your desires, let go of grief and of hope as well, for where these rule , then the mind is their subject." Boetius
User avatar
clw_uk
 
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales, United Kingdom

Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Individual » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:55 pm

clw_uk wrote:Greetings


The other tread that was about Intelligent design got me looking at the Big bang theory again. Does the big bang mean that everything is already determined? The Big bang, in essence, set of a chain of events that, several billion years later, caused life to evolve on earth and for humans to come into existence. I mean if you trace everything backwards through cause and effect it leads to you the big bang


I know its a wrong view in Buddhism but physical science seems to prove it

So, has everything already been set, like how the last domino is already set to fall when the first one fell?


metta

No, everything is not already determined.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Individual
 
Posts: 1970
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am

Next

Return to Lounge

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests