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Is everything already determined? - Dhamma Wheel

Is everything already determined?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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clw_uk
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Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:39 pm

Greetings


The other tread that was about Intelligent design got me looking at the Big bang theory again. Does the big bang mean that everything is already determined? The Big bang, in essence, set of a chain of events that, several billion years later, caused life to evolve on earth and for humans to come into existence. I mean if you trace everything backwards through cause and effect it leads to you the big bang


I know its a wrong view in Buddhism but physical science seems to prove it

So, has everything already been set, like how the last domino is already set to fall when the first one fell?


metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:44 pm

the last domino doesn't always fall just becayse the first did!


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:57 pm

It does if the line isnt broken


Cause and effect has never had a kind of gap in it since the big bang



To expand the idea im putting out for debate is kinda a long these lines


everything that happens right now was decided billions of years ago by the movement of a few quarks, since if those quarks hadnt come together to form hadrons then matter wouldnt come to be and there would be nothing in the universe accept radiation. However quarks did go onto form hadrons which eventually gave birth to the atom and matter which then formed the galaxies, sun, planet, earth, life, human, craig, lives, get sick, old and dies.



(Im not a scientist by trade so i may be slightly off in what i said above in relation to the early universe, i wrote it from memory)

metta
Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:04 pm

if no break in the chain could happen, then enlightenment is not possible.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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clw_uk
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Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:12 pm

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Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:00 pm

plus if things are predetermined then what would be the point in practice?
plus pre-determination doesn't only imply a design, but says there is a design where as design doesn't need the predetermination.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Is everything actually predetermined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:04 pm

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cooran
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby cooran » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:33 pm

Hello clw_uk,

What caused the most recent Big Bang which 'formed' the Universe As We Know It? And the uncountable Big Bangs before that?

metta
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Mawkish1983 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:44 pm

Science answer, quantum mechanics forbids determinism. Look up Heisenburg's uncertainty principal and enjoy :)

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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:49 pm

Edit - corrected doesn't to does
Yes that is what I meant, and why I didn't use the word inteligent, some of what is classed in id isn't actually id but simply d.

predetermined or determined both imply action either one action which set every thing going in a course that could not be altered (predetermined) or many actions which alter the chain of events to come in some way (think of the weather and its effects on peoples mood) both imply the same thing just from a different angle (deist or monotheistic/pantheistic models althought the hindus have a rather interesting take which is half and half in some ways and to an extent so did the ancient greek although not developed in the same way)

here is a little list of the possibilities in both predetermined and determined but obviously not exhaustive

predetermined
doesn't matter what we do the end result is guaranteed no matter what, wither heaven or hell in the one two lives model, or enlightenment in the three life model, although if it is only a onelife model the same applies.

determined
this has several possibilities
deist - same as predetermined exept that everything that happens had an initial starting point and course which without other influences its target would fall in the predetermined bracket but as it does effects and alters the couse of everything else it comes into contact with.
science - same as above
theistic - miricles

these are just some of the possibilities off the top of my headand I do have another but will do another post in a min for that the scroll is hard to work with at this length?
Last edited by Cittasanto on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:59 pm

the other option (if I should of even called it that) is that the source be it called a deistic god, or a chain of causes and conditions which led to the knowable timeframe we live in (100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years or so from .00005 of a second after the big bang if I remember the closest we can get to it at the moment) as Dawkin may say, is the cause of the universe is unknownso why bother thinking about it? for scientific inquiry and further development of our knowledge and ability - yes - but in day to day life no, here we are lets get on with it.

I am reminded of a sutta but can not thing which one or two


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:03 pm

Hi Mawkish
thanks didn't see your post before mine


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:05 pm

This sounds a lot like the free will vs. determinism debates.

Theists prefer free will
Atheists prefer determinism

Buddhas know Dependent Origination

:yingyang:

:meditate:
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Cittasanto » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:09 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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clw_uk
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:26 pm

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clw_uk
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:28 pm

Last edited by clw_uk on Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:33 pm

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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby David N. Snyder » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:34 pm

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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:46 pm

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Re: Is everything already determined?

Postby Individual » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:55 pm

The best things in life aren't things.



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