Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

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Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:13 pm

Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:34 pm

If only at times this imagined imagery during one’s meditation of putting out the burning coals of the roots of the hindrances with imagined water actually works, but at other times it does not, does this cancel out this particular meditative practice as being a an illegitimate technique? Or does it merely indicate that one’s belief in its effectiveness is not genuinely applied adequately enough when it fails to deliver the desired results?
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:49 pm

All joking aside, now...
And we should believe that why?


Imagined imagery is not vipassana. It is imagined imagery.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:57 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
All joking aside, now...
And we should believe that why?

Imagined imagery is not vipassana. It is imagined imagery.


Because the question that I asked was serious. If you have a personal problem with me, though, why don't you address me personally in a private message. If you have a serious answer or input to the subject matter of this thread, then by all means, please share what you have to say.

It is quite clear when I have made threads that were meant to be humorous, unless of course the reader is just so completely humorless that they are not able to recognize such things.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:23 pm

flyingOx wrote:All joking aside, now...

Because the question that I asked was serious. If you have a personal problem with me, though, why don't you address me personally in a private message.


The problem is while people have tried to deal with you seriously you clowned around publicly in response to their well-meaning attempts at trying to deal with you seriously, and your signature raises the question - publicly. Once bitten twice shy.

It is quite clear when I have made threads that were meant to be humorous, unless of course the reader is just so completely humorless that they are not able to recognize such things.


That would be just about - if not - all the responders to your previous two threads of clowning around msgs, and you treated them shabbily with your clowning around and this comment of yours does not help. If you are now, in fact, serious, then let us move on, but do take some responsibility for your previous - at best - questionable behavior.

If you have a serious answer or input to the subject matter of this thread, then by all means, please share what you have to say.


You were given a serious answer to your question: Imagined imagery is not vipassana. It is imagined imagery.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:37 pm

Wasnt very nice if you lied in the other threads and tricked others for your own amusement. Plus it can lead to a situation of "the boy who cried wolf"


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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:38 pm

What would you like me to say,then, tiltbillings? Let's see:

No, I am not enlightened.
Yes, I have clowned around.
Yes, I thought it was obvious.
Do I like YOU, tilt? No, I don't.
Do I think that a lot of Buddhists go around acting like stuck up, know it all snobs? Yes, I do.
Am I considering not ever wanting to talk to another Buddhist again, because of it. MAYBE! TILT...It HAS come across my mind more than once.
I left the Christian faith because I thought that they were too arrogant, but by and large, Buddhism has them beat at it, if you ask me. I haven't run into so many stuck up jerks in my life, to be honest with you.

NOW, do I apprecieate and find a lot of peace and love in Buddha's writings, yes I do, but I'm not so sure that Buddhism is the right place for me, even still. The ball is on your side of the court, buddy.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:44 pm

No, I am not enlightened.


So you lied to everyone, not very kind of you

Yes, I have clowned around.


Humour is good but not at other peoples expense, which is what you have attempted to do here


Do I like YOU, tilt? No, I don't.


Metta

Do I think that a lot of Buddhists go around acting like stuck up, know it all snobs? Yes, I do.


A lot of what was said was to try and help you because they thought you were ill, however you lied and played games with them

Am I considering not ever wanting to talk to another Buddhist again, because of it. MAYBE! TILT...It HAS come across my mind more than once.


Honesty is liked in buddhist circles, lying as you have done wouldnt be welcomed. In Buddhism lying, even for "jokes" isnt seen as wholesome





NOW, do I apprecieate and find a lot of peace and love in Buddha's writings, yes I do, but I'm not so sure that Buddhism is the right place for me, even still.


Then why dont you put it into practice for your own benefit and for others instead of lying and trying to make fools of those who offer help and compassion?


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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:49 pm

flyingOx wrote:What would you like me to say,then, tiltbillings? Let's see:

No, I am not enlightened.
Yes, I have clowned around.
Yes, I thought it was obvious.
Do I like YOU, tilt? No, I don't.
Do I think that a lot of Buddhists go around acting like stuck up, know it all snobs? Yes, I do.
Am I considering not ever wanting to talk to another Buddhist again, because of it. MAYBE! TILT...It HAS come across my mind more than once.
I left the Christian faith because I thought that they were too arrogant, but by and large, Buddhism has them beat at it, if you ask me. I haven't run into so many stuck up jerks in my life, to be honest with you.

NOW, do I apprecieate and find a lot of peace and love in Buddha's writings, yes I do, but I'm not so sure that Buddhism is the right place for me, even still. The ball is on your side of the court, buddy.

You are still blaming others for your bad behavior. If you are going to really get something out of Buddhism, that probably is not the way to do it. That others may act badly is not the point; the point is taking responsibility for your behavior and the consequences of that behavior. That is between you and you. Just don't expect people who have been burned by your behavior not to be wary, especially when rather than an apology one gets from you a self justification rant.

Now, if you are serious about the question, let us move on.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:53 pm

I don't like you Tilt, I don't want to move on with any conversation with you. PERIOD. You are a jerk. I will not talk to someone so hateful.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:55 pm

Telling someone that they are psychologically ill because of the way that they believe spiritually is not being helpful.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:59 pm

flyingOx wrote:Telling someone that they are psychologically ill because of the way that they believe spiritually is not being helpful.



Neither is lying to pretend to be something your not and continue on with it even when others show concern for you



If you didnt find it helpful when people thought you were ill because you claimed to be enlightened why didnt you just come clean and admit it was a joke instead of carrying on with it?
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby Ben » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:07 pm

flyingOx wrote:Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?


No. As Tilt has inferred, imagination is not seeing things as they really are (vipassana).
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:07 pm

clw_uk wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Telling someone that they are psychologically ill because of the way that they believe spiritually is not being helpful.



Neither is lying to pretend to be something your not and continue on with it even when others show concern for you



If you didnt find it helpful when people thought you were ill because you claimed to be enlightened why didnt you just come clean and admit it was a joke instead of carrying on with it?


When I first became successful at producing my own jhana and higher subtle states, I thought that I WAS enlightened. I don't know if I was or not, now. Too many people have made me question it. As far as everything else, I was just joking, and I thought that it was obvious.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:09 pm

Ben wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?


No. As Tilt has inferred, imagination is not seeing things as they really are (vipassana).
Ben


I see. But if one actually DOES see the root of a hindrance, is it not permissable to also imagine them being put out as with water?
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:14 pm

When I first became successful at producing my own jhana and higher subtle states, I thought that I WAS enlightened. I don't know if I was or not, now. Too many people have made me question it. As far as everything else, I was just joking, and I thought that it was obvious.



Not being critical here but offering some friendly advice ok :) . If you doubt you are enlightened then you are not, reguardless of it you doubt it yourself or if others "make you" doubt

When one is enlightened one is sure, beyond all doubt


as for the rest, perhaps you thought everyone could tell you were joking but I (and i assume others) could not, hence when you later say it was a joke it just seems like you were taking advantage of peoples kindness and being deceitful


Anyway if anyone is a good buddhist there will be no hatred either way, by all means carry on posting here if you wish. My advice though would to just be honest from now on and leave practical jokes aside :)

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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:17 pm

flyingOx wrote:
Ben wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Let’s say someone is doing insight meditation, and one becomes aware of a root to a hindrance through one’s presently active sense of discernment. If one imagines that the root being observed is a red, hot, burning piece of coal, and the breath is like pouring water onto the burning piece of coal that completely puts it out in one’s imagination, will this meditative process effectively put a real end to the root of that hindrance if one simultaneously ties to this imagined imagery one’s belief that it is truly happening?


No. As Tilt has inferred, imagination is not seeing things as they really are (vipassana).
Ben


I see. But if one actually DOES see the root of a hindrance, is it not permissable to also imagine them being put out as with water?



The problem with imagining it is that your using conditioned thought and are just thinking about it not experiencing and seeing it via mindfulness and concentration to get insight


for a basic example, i can think about anatta and imagine various things to conceptualize it but I still dont actually know or see it

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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:21 pm

This is why in the four foundations of mindfulness, in realtion to the body for this example, we dont sit there and think about the body being anicca, anatta and dukkha but actually experience it and see it via strong mindfulness and concentration



The essence is mindfulness (observing, watching) and concentration (focusing etc)



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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby flyingOx » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:23 pm

After I had reached the higher jhanas and after the point of perceiving but not perceiving, I WAS sure that I was enlightened, AT THAT TIME. The questioning came later.

You and other say things like, "I'm not trying to be judgemental, not to be critical, not to be this or that," but these are just figures of speech. You ARE being critical, and this is also to me dishonesty. I suppose it depends on who is being dishonest or how long that particular Buddhist has been practicing when they get to actually get away with such things.

As far as hatefulness, whether you say that it is merely me misinterpreting it or not, I definitely have sensed hate being sent my way from several people here on Dhamma Wheel. You can call that an imagination if you want to, but I don't really care.

All of you are making a very good case for me to not become a Buddhist, though.
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Re: Effectiveness of Imagined Imagery in Meditation

Postby clw_uk » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:30 pm

After I had reached the higher jhanas and after the point of perceiving but not perceiving, I WAS sure that I was enlightened, AT THAT TIME. The questioning came later.



You arent the first to think such things after said exp. and you wont be the last

You and other say things like, "I'm not trying to be judgemental, not to be critical, not to be this or that," but these are just figures of speech. You ARE being critical, and this is also to me dishonesty. I suppose it depends on who is being dishonest or how long that particular Buddhist has been practicing when they get to actually get away with such things.


Of course its a criticism, the phrase "im not being judgemental" etc means that one isnt criticising you in a negative way but for positive reasons, so its positive criticism. Everyone needs this at some point otherwise we are surrounded by Yes Men and know one would actually learn anything, good criticism makes someone grow

As far as hatefulness, whether you say that it is merely me misinterpreting it or not, I definitely have sensed hate being sent my way from several people here on Dhamma Wheel. You can call that an imagination if you want to, but I don't really care.


Just because something looks like its a personal attack etc doesnt mean it is, Enlightened beings in the suttas were sometimes rude to new students. They had no hate or anger in them. Its the intention behind the act that makes it hateful

The apprerance of something posted doesnt always correlate with the intention behind it

The phrase "cruel to be kind" is apt here

You can believe me or not, its up to you, but i dont hate you and none of my previous posts were written with hate or anger as an intention. I cant speak for others but i assume the same
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